[Discussion]Electoral Expansion Act (Option for Verification)

[Regnum Italiae]

Options for Verification

Option 1: Telegram
The applicant provides the name of the nation who holds WA membership or admin privileges in another region. The manager(s) of the list (the commissioners in the draft) send a telegram to said nation asking for confirmation of ownership. If the confirmation is received within 10 minutes, the applicant will be registered in the list.

Option 2: Screenshot
The applicant provides the name of the nation who holds WA membership or admin privileges in another region and a screenshot that shows the setting pages of both the applicant nation and the WA nation. The browser UI and a portion of the desktop with the application bar MUST be visible. If the screenshot is received and deemed valid, the applicant will be registered in the list.

Option 3: Verification API
This will be achieved through the site’s verification API. See here for steps and guide:

You must be registered for see links

.
There are actually more options, it just depends on the level of effort and creativity. The only actual requirement is a third-party site, that we have in the form of

You must be registered for see links

.

 

[Imperium Anglorum]

Option 1: Telegram
The applicant provides the name of the nation who holds WA membership or admin privileges in another region. The manager(s) of the list (the commissioners in the draft) send a telegram to said nation asking for confirmation of ownership. If the confirmation is received within 10 minutes, the applicant will be registered in the list.

Surely you mean holds WA membership and admin privileges in another region. Could you define what admin privileges mean in this context?

Option 2: Screenshot
The applicant provides the name of the nation who holds WA membership or admin privileges in another region and a screenshot that shows the setting pages of both the applicant nation and the WA nation. The browser UI and a portion of the desktop with the application bar MUST be visible. If the screenshot is received and deemed valid, the applicant will be registered in the list.

How do we verify that screenshots are accurate? People can fake screenshots pretty easily.

Option 3: Verification API
This will be achieved through the site’s verification API. See here for steps and guide:

You must be registered for see links

.
There are actually more options, it just depends on the level of effort and creativity. The only actual requirement is a third-party site, that we have in the form of

You must be registered for see links

.

I know how the verification API works. All it does is verify that you own some specific nation. What steps are you proposing in those verifications?

 

[Regnum Italiae]

Surely you mean holds WA membership and admin privileges in another region. Could you define what admin privileges mean in this context?

No, I mean or. Admin privileges means that the nation is in the Admin tab of the region, i.e the founder or another position such as Legislator in TSP.

How do we verify that screenshots are accurate? People can fake screenshots pretty easily.

Yes, I know. Yet it's also pretty easy to find out if a screenshot is faked.

I know how the verification API works. All it does is verify that you own some specific nation. What steps are you proposing in those verifications?

We require the applicant to verify through the login at the verification URL with its WA nation.
If we receive the confirmation within an acceptable timespan, it's ok.
We just need to verify ownership.

 

[Imperium Anglorum]

No, I mean or. Admin privileges means that the nation is in the Admin tab of the region, i.e the founder or another position such as Legislator in TSP.

Then I don't see the point. In this case, that person could easily have WA membership in Europe and a puppet elsewhere being legislator or whatever (eg Myrth). Secondarily, what regions count? If I make a region – call it Nordic Council – and I confirm that I am the founder (I am), this procedure would give a puppet of mine a second vote.

Yes, I know. Yet it's also pretty easy to find out if a screenshot is faked.

How?

We require the applicant to verify through the login at the verification URL with its WA nation.
If we receive the confirmation within an acceptable timespan, it's ok.
We just need to verify ownership.

You want people to verify that they own a WA nation elsewhere. This one doesn't seem to have the duplication problem. But I am concerned that voters who are active in other regions could be imported at ease with little costs to their own. Part of why WA membership is helpful is preventing import of voters active in some region where they themselves require WA membership. In the status quo, people have to deregister their WA nation and register a different one, which gives clear signals to their own region's population. This policy would remove such barriers.

 

[Regnum Italiae]

Then I don't see the point. In this case, that person could easily have WA membership in Europe and a puppet elsewhere being legislator or whatever (eg Myrth). Secondarily, what regions count? If I make a region – call it Nordic Council – and I confirm that I am the founder (I am), this procedure would give a puppet of mine a second vote.

You do have a point here. What do you suggest in this regard?

How?

Not everyone is an expert editor and there are many details that can tell you an image is faked simply by eye. Other than that, there are plenty of online tools to read the metadata of an image.
Edit: Ok, apparently metadata cannot be used to verify the authenticity of a screenshot. My bad, better scrap out this option.

You want people to verify that they own a WA nation elsewhere. This one doesn't seem to have the duplication problem. But I am concerned that voters who are active in other regions could be imported at ease with little costs to their own. Part of why WA membership is helpful is preventing import of voters active in some region where they themselves require WA membership. In the status quo, people have to deregister their WA nation and register a different one, which gives clear signals to their own region's population. This policy would remove such barriers.

We can have more time requirements, like that you must own WA membership for at least 30 days and/or a limit in age population/age of the nation. And even now I can own multiple WA nations by using different devices each with its own mobile network or, even simpler, by using a VPN. It takes way less effort to circumvent the WA requirement than to circumvent this option IMHO.

 

[Imperium Anglorum]

You do have a point here. What do you suggest in this regard?

I don't think there is a way to achieve the desired goal without having this kind of problem.

Not everyone is an expert editor and there are many details that can tell you an image is faked simply by eye. Other than that, there are plenty of online tools to read the metadata of an image.
Edit: Ok, apparently metadata cannot be used to verify the authenticity of a screenshot. My bad, better scrap out this option.

Developer tools can change the appearance of telegrams or other things in a way without Photoshop or something like that.

We can have more time requirements, like that you must own WA membership for at least 30 days and/or a limit in age population/age of the nation. And even now I can own multiple WA nations by using different devices each with its own mobile network or, even simpler, by using a VPN. It takes way less effort to circumvent the WA requirement than to circumvent this option IMHO.

I believe that doesn't work. On the GP forum, there was a really big scandal when Yodle did something of the sort and was banned for it.

 

[Regnum Italiae]

I don't think there is a way to achieve the desired goal without having this kind of problem.

Developer tools can change the appearance of telegrams or other things in a way without Photoshop or something like that.

I believe that doesn't work. On the GP forum, there was a really big scandal when Yodle did something of the sort and was banned for it.

Ok then, I guess the only viable option is the verification API.
Would you support the motion if we use that way to verify ownership?

 

[Imperium Anglorum]

I said earlier:

> You want people to verify that they own a WA nation elsewhere. This one doesn't seem to have the duplication problem. But I am concerned that voters who are active in other regions could be imported at ease with little costs to their own. Part of why WA membership is helpful is preventing import of voters active in some region where they themselves require WA membership. In the status quo, people have to deregister their WA nation and register a different one, which gives clear signals to their own region's population. This policy would remove such barriers.

What are your thoughts on that? I mean at a really broad level, I think that the people who engage politically in the region ought to be invested in the health of the region and not simply brought on externally. Something more limited then, for people who might also serve in an administrative role would be better.

More importantly though, passing a law to create some verification API thing will not magic it into existence. I'm aware of how it works, but attaching the proper safeguards and making it work properly is a lot more difficult than just saying 'do it'. I'm not actually sure how we could use the verification API without some other way of making sure that results are attached to a single person. Creating sign-ins and account creation is also unclear.

 

[Regnum Italiae]

I think that long-standing residents should have a say in how the region runs.
But, if we cannot verify ownership of a nation we cannot let people vote as it would undermine our democratic process rather improve it.
Unless we find a way to make verification work, I'd say we cannot proceed further.