EE, Uj, Ost Claims Discussion

[Thaumantica]

So the request and fillings of @

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/ @

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expansion to border with Cidonia, and the @

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initial new mapspot are debated by @

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/ @

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. There was never an open agreement on what to do in both cases, so we'll have to do it here.

For Kyiv and Xenn I'd prefer you handle it here rather than over IRC just so everyone gets a good idea of how a staff to staff compromise does or doesn't work. We might even learn something about the art of not flaming on a contested issue.

 

[Thaumantica]

I see Xen and [MENTION=1732]Újország[/MENTION] are online, Kyiv's in the IRC idling. Someone break the ice.

 

[Újország]

To be frank, I've already issued a potential resolution of Xen's issue in my Factbook thread, I don't see what the problem is.

 

[Thaumantica]

To be frank, I've already issued a potential resolution of Xen's issue in my Factbook thread, I don't see what the problem is.

You're talkin' about this:

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[Újország]

Indeed, he will still be able to border the nations he wants to border and it creates a more interesting dynamic for both nations, everybody wins.

 

[Touzen]

I am really not keen on any exclaves, and I also think it doesn't really make sense historically with such a Christian killing "no man's land" essentially making the East inaccessible to the East for hundreds of years. As it stands right now, I feel somehow rearranging the spot forms in that general area might be the only solution to allow general bordering, and it would possibly require enlarging the map in that part, but that would in return likely also affect people like Twente who thus far have not been involved in this affair. I also must say that I expected the Moon Sea to be a completely Eternal naval body, truth be told. Just being frank here as well.

More generally speaking, I think that the issues Yanksy now has with my objections could have been avoided if he had acted differently when I originally requested my area. I opened a thread to gauge public opinion, there wasn't really a reaction, I then filled a request and it was granted - but it does feel that Yanksy must have felt skeptical about this RP project even then, so in my book he should have denied the request in the past if he had such a problem with it. To retroactively justify unapproved changes to my nation with some seniority and size arguments - I dunno, it values one player's RP more than another player's. I find that very weak, and it doesn't give me security in my RP planning at all.

I don't think that Kyiv and me neccessarily have to use this thread to solve the issue between us, as it is chiefly something between two people. We might of course, but I don't think we have to. Just like I would have preferred that Steam discussion to this here.

 

[Újország]

I am really not keen on any exclaves, and I also think it doesn't really make sense historically with such a Christian killing "no man's land" essentially making the East inaccessible to the East for hundreds of years.

Luckily for us we have the luxury of being able to edit and re-assess this fictional history of ours to conform to the current borders, we have almost one thousand years of fake history we can use to justify anything we damn well please.

I also must say that I expected the Moon Sea to be a completely Eternal naval body, truth be told. Just being frank here as well.

You win some, you lose some.

I dunno, it values one player's RP more than another player's. I find that very weak, and it doesn't give me security in my RP planning at all.

I'm glad you can relate because as it stands this debate over literally nothing has the potential to completely toss up any potential RP established between both myself, Wendziema and several others currently involved only a few forums up.

 

[Thaumantica]

More generally speaking, I think that the issues Yanksy now has with my objections could have been avoided if he had acted differently when I originally requested my area. I opened a thread to gauge public opinion, there wasn't really a reaction, I then filled a request and it was granted - but it does feel that Yanksy must have felt skeptical about this RP project even then, so in my book he should have denied the request in the past if he had such a problem with it. To retroactively justify unapproved changes to my nation with some seniority and size arguments - I dunno, it values one player's RP more than another player's. I find that very weak, and it doesn't give me security in my RP planning at all.

I just think a new player has priority in this situation, and I want the two to succeed where only one would have if we located him somewhere else. As I was saying in his factbook thread: he's got this potential conflict RP and no representation on the map, we needed to get him on there so everyone knows the thread has value/makes sense. Granted I think I should have waited to see your direct approval, and I understand how it is alarming to have changes made without you being aware or in approval. I fully process that gripe.

A thing to note though: mapmaking decisions do sometimes make RP value calls. I've been mostly liberal when it comes to granting colonies and expansions over the last year or so, but the map and granting requests does come down to (in my view) weighing the needs of the many against the needs of the one. I sincerely doubt that you will be unable to scavenge any RP value out of your territory of his map spot stays as is, but if you take his compromise you have even more value, or if you seek another compromise there'll be some value there as well.

Again, it's best that we're figuring this out now before the conflict advances any further.

I don't think that Kyiv and me neccessarily have to use this thread to solve the issue between us, as it is chiefly something between two people. We might of course, but I don't think we have to. Just like I would have preferred that Steam discussion to this here.

Back-room deals for pixels is not good practice, especially between admins. We ideally want changes to the map to be represented by on-site RP or OOC discussions that everyone has access to. I'm not accusing you of any wheeling or dealing past or present, just saying that for this instance this thread would be ideal. Therein also showing how such a thread can work without flaming - as has been the case in a few recent threads where debates took place.

 

[Touzen]

Thing is I don't want to change the trope though, as it's what I designed the EE around. I don't want the EE to be integrated with the West, that is it's entire point. It would make more sense for me not to have that exclave, but then I can't continue RPing with Wendziema if you want to keep your spot as has been drawn on that map right now. I really don't understand why you didn't take G4, to be honest.

As it stands I also won't be facing the two Christian semi-theocracies, which again, was a great antagonism set up right there. There also was the other option of your spot being quite smaller to border only the naval body between Ostria/Twente as well as Wendziema. With this RP now having started before the borders were clearly defined, it seems increasingly unlikely that we will walk out of this without anyone losing RP. (I'm not even opening the whole issue of the historical battleground.) You'll notice that I also am involved in that RP, so the tossup is mutual, because we both claim to border the same nations.

 

[Ostria]

I have no problem (aside from asethetic) with returning the map to the way it was. The change was never very important.

 

[Twente]

I am really not keen on any exclaves, and I also think it doesn't really make sense historically with such a Christian killing "no man's land" essentially making the East inaccessible to the East for hundreds of years. As it stands right now, I feel somehow rearranging the spot forms in that general area might be the only solution to allow general bordering, and it would possibly require enlarging the map in that part, but that would in return likely also affect people like Twente who thus far have not been involved in this affair. I also must say that I expected the Moon Sea to be a completely Eternal naval body, truth be told. Just being frank here as well.

Although I have nothing against exclaves, I don't see the necessity of handing out that land. International relations in the 50s were very much possible without having a land border. I prefer to see more micro-states like Holzahlen, that part of the map would be ideal for it...possible for a Krakow inspired state. In the short period that Twente is back on the map, I've seen my neighbors come and go. I really don't mind who borders me anymore, next week there will be someone else. You don't see me involved in RP and I don't expect to be very active on that front in the foreseeable future. It'll take me months, maybe years, to create all the aspects of my own nation before I get involved in my neighbor's business. So feel free to fill it in as you please.

 

[Újország]

Thing is I don't want to change the trope though, as it's what I designed the EE around. I don't want the EE to be integrated with the West, that is it's entire point. It would make more sense for me not to have that exclave, but then I can't continue RPing with Wendziema if you want to keep your spot as has been drawn on that map right now. I really don't understand why you didn't take G4, to be honest.

As it stands I also won't be facing the two Christian semi-theocracies, which again, was a great antagonism set up right there. There also was the other option of your spot being quite smaller to border only the naval body between Ostria/Twente as well as Wendziema. With this RP now having started before the borders were clearly defined, it seems increasingly unlikely that we will walk out of this without anyone losing RP. (I'm not even opening the whole issue of the historical battleground.) You'll notice that I also am involved in that RP, so the tossup is mutual, because we both claim to border the same nations.

The concepts can easily be edited to accommodate the new borders with very little hassle and in a way that can only enrich the existing setting and once-more I've given you the alternative of how the exclave could be easily explained by simply re-assessing existing canon. I can certainly understand why you question my decision on G4 after-all it's the outcome that provides you with the least challenge.

Furthermore you would border Ostria and Twente in my compromise, what exactly do you mean with your second paragraph?

The only people losing RP is everybody but yourself, the way you've inserted yourself into the scenario was one of little direct interaction and therefore of little consequence to yourself if these current borders were to be maintained, but oncemore my compromise fixes that entirely.

You know better than to bring up the historical battleground since you know full well it's an absurd argument you pulled out only because you hadn't prepared any rhetoric the day the proposal was drafted and even then I offered you several alternatives in which the other mod/admin present found greatly improved on the existing concept, it also didn't help that you refused to suggest a location for where this said battle took place so that the map could be adjusted accordingly.

 

[Touzen]

The concepts can easily be edited to accommodate the new borders with very little hassle and in a way that can only enrich the existing setting and once-more I've given you the alternative of how the exclave could be easily explained by simply re-assessing existing canon. I can certainly understand why you question my decision on G4 after-all it's the outcome that provides you with the least challenge.

Exactly, it's the outcome with the least challenge. You weren't established yet. So we are having problems that could have been avoided in my book. Also the entire Enlightenment Brigades trope likely would not much sense in such an exclave.

Furthermore you would border Ostria and Twente in my compromise, what exactly do you mean with your second paragraph?

It's still an exclave though, I consider that to be of a fundamentally different nature in terms of RP.

The only people losing RP is everybody but yourself, the way you've inserted yourself into the scenario was one of little direct interaction and therefore of little consequence to yourself if these current borders were to be maintained, but oncemore my compromise fixes that entirely.

You know better than to bring up the historical battleground since you know full well it's an absurd argument you pulled out only because you hadn't prepared any rhetoric the day the proposal was drafted and even then I offered you several alternatives in which the other mod/admin present found greatly improved on the existing concept, it also didn't help that you refused to suggest a location for where this said battle took place so that the map could be adjusted accordingly.

I think we are running in circles because we both have a fundamentally different idea about whether we think that exclave idea is good or not. The day the proposal was drafted you invited me into a discussion at 4AM when I wanted to go to bed. This discussion is getting sort of hostile, though.

 

[Újország]

Exactly, it's the outcome with the least challenge. You weren't established yet. So we are having problems that could have been avoided in my book. Also the entire Enlightenment Brigades trope likely would not much sense in such an exclave.

Exactly, you really want to have your way and that would be the perfect outcome for you, but I of course disagree and I believe my current positioning benefits the scenario as a whole and creates a far more interesting dynamic which you too could be a part of if you would just accept a slight change in pixel coloration.

It's still an exclave though, I consider that to be of a fundamentally different nature in terms of RP.

And I disagree, that's the end of that and it's out of our hands, unless of course you are of a mind to force your preferred outcome.

I think we are running in circles because we both have a fundamentally different idea about whether we think that exclave idea is good or not. The day the proposal was drafted you invited me into a discussion at 4AM when I wanted to go to bed. This discussion is getting sort of hostile, though.

Well our difference of idea seems to be my end which is to preserve the original concepts as much as possible in a way that benefits everybody as a whole and your idea which with all due respect seems to be to accommodate only yourself based on preconceived notions of canon which in some of your mentioned cases is superfluous.

I apologize if the tone of some of my posts seems hostile, they aren't meant as such.

 

[Eternal Empire]

And I stand by the opinion that I don't think my involvement, nor indeed my general integration with the Wiedz RP, would be possible that way, as I consider an exclave to be an unfeasible idea that would not make sense in the setup of my nation as I have designed it, and I also simply am not fond of the idea from an aesthetic pov. I was hesitant to write in this thread in the last few days as I think we might not be able to resolve this issue as our views on what our region of the map should be are mutually incompatible. You want me to change a core idea about my nation (its isolation from Germania, while being geographically located inside it), or rather, changed it prematurely, while I think that was not needed and you could have started your RP without expecting me to change my setup. A change of the scope and shape of your spot would be able to solve most problems, which I think is the most feasible solution now that even that other spot I suggested to you cannot be taken even if you had decided to agree to that.

So how will we proceed from here?

 

[Újország]

And I stand by the opinion that I don't think my involvement, nor indeed my general integration with the Wiedz RP, would be possible that way, as I consider an exclave to be an unfeasible idea that would not make sense in the setup of my nation as I have designed it, and I also simply am not fond of the idea from an aesthetic pov. I was hesitant to write in this thread in the last few days as I think we might not be able to resolve this issue as our views on what our region of the map should be are mutually incompatible. You want me to change a core idea about my nation (its isolation from Germania, while being geographically located inside it), or rather, changed it prematurely, while I think that was not needed and you could have started your RP without expecting me to change my setup. A change of the scope and shape of your spot would be able to solve most problems, which I think is the most feasible solution now that even that other spot I suggested to you cannot be taken even if you had decided to agree to that.

So how will we proceed from here?

How exactly will the exclave effect and drastically alter your original concept when the presence of myself combined with the unique relationship to Wendziema only serves to greatly improve on your concept whilst preserving the unique atmosphere built up thus far through in character interaction to which I must attest I've seen very little from you as of late, I presume you're busy with real life issues?

 

[Eternal Empire]

The point is that you built up this "unique relationship" based on assumptions about the map that were not verified with me previously. This may well be pedantic, but it's also a simple matter of not wanting to have my stuff changed without at least getting my consent. I've already had a talk about this with Yanksy as well and I think he understands the problem that is changing things unilaterally. Fact is that the Golden Path murdered Christians and destroyed Slavic Orthodox high culture as it advanced westwards - it would be absolutely bonkers to assume that such an exclave would exist. It would have inevitably been crusaded or at the very latest been annexed during the 19th century's spring of nations. I think it simply doesn't fit the concept of a strict dichotomy between Western Christianity and Eastern Golden Path. That's also a reason I was/am keen on bordering Ostria, Twente, Wiedz.

The situation here is part of the reason I haven't posted recently. There are also other reasons, but this thread is not about my activity I think, or at least it shouldn't be I feel. If anything resolving the issues of this thread in one way or another will help me to reorient myself in regards to how I will proceed from here on.

 

[Újország]

The point is that you built up this "unique relationship" based on assumptions about the map that were not verified with me previously. This may well be pedantic, but it's also a simple matter of not wanting to have my stuff changed without at least getting my consent. I've already had a talk about this with Yanksy as well and I think he understands the problem that is changing things unilaterally. Fact is that the Golden Path murdered Christians and destroyed Slavic Orthodox high culture as it advanced westwards - it would be absolutely bonkers to assume that such an exclave would exist. It would have inevitably been crusaded or at the very latest been annexed during the 19th century's spring of nations. I think it simply doesn't fit the concept of a strict dichotomy between Western Christianity and Eastern Golden Path. That's also a reason I was/am keen on bordering Ostria, Twente, Wiedz.

The situation here is part of the reason I haven't posted recently. There are also other reasons, but this thread is not about my activity I think, or at least it shouldn't be I feel. If anything resolving the issues of this thread in one way or another will help me to reorient myself in regards to how I will proceed from here on.

I was instructed to begin roleplaying by the moderator who was present in our initial chat, you were also there when I received said instructions and did not find it to be a source of much contention at the time but now that it's developed into a situation that may threaten your own interests all of a sudden it appears to be quite the issue indeed.

Once more we have thousands of years of fake history we can change to accommodate the setting without severely disrupting the general status quo, let me give you a theoretical scenario for this situation to exist:

We can claim that ages prior to the spring of nations Carpathia was subjugated or at least partially subjugated such as Moldova and Transylvania was for the Ottomans and after a series of events, with which we will have the opportunity to further detail and involve even more people in the scenario, the nation or even nations of Carpathia finally gained their independence after either a lengthy period of resistance combined with pressures from European powers or maybe even by outright battle by perhaps Ostria and other nearby nations but the end result is the creation of the exclave which would remain part of the Eternal Empire and not annexed due to pressures from the Tripartite or something because that particular region would be inhabited by ethnic groups or religious believers favorable to the EE over unity with Carpathia which would mirror a sort of Bosnia/Kaliningrad thing. Perhaps this territory has autonomy but is still technically under the governance of the Eternal Empire, there's so many ways to adjust it to fit the scenario and keep everybody happy, but of course it seems to be your way or the highway.

 

[Újország]

Furthermore I'd like to also state, at risk of double posting, that Carpathia isn't necessarily hostile to the Eternal Empire as I plan on mirroring the historical Hungarian Turanism theories and ideologies which combined with the secular nature of my nations government would allow the potential for positive relations and even cooperation to exist between our two entities in case you felt you would be strategically marginalized or something because of OOC reasons.

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[Thaumantica]

Fact is that the Golden Path murdered Christians and destroyed Slavic Orthodox high culture as it advanced westwards - it would be absolutely bonkers to assume that such an exclave would exist. It would have inevitably been crusaded or at the very latest been annexed during the 19th century's spring of nations. I think it simply doesn't fit the concept of a strict dichotomy between Western Christianity and Eastern Golden Path. That's also a reason I was/am keen on bordering Ostria, Twente, Wiedz.

What about as a community of so-called "peaceful" Golden Path who betrayed their more radical counterparts to end the spread West. In that at least you'd have some reason for sectarian quarreling between Western Path Peoples, a minority separated from their greater mass, and the Eastern Path People who have the majority and great mass.

This land would not have had to be independent and strong this entire time either, perhaps it's been occupied by the Christian nations for a time and recently or eventually achieved independence as a culture distinct from Wendziema, Ujor, Twente, and even the EE mass.