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Map Guidelines and the Basic Colony or Territorial Expansion Process

Pohjanmaa

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Map Guidelines and the Basic Colony or Territorial Expansion Process
As part of a dialogue and general request from the player base there seems to be a desire for more transparent and easy to follow instructions on how to apply or expand. This will lead to two major changes in how we can expect requests to go.

1. All applications for such requests will be similar and granted without bias or subjective judgement and thus not require different demands from different players allowing for a more equal system.

2. That applications will come attached with less stigma behind them as expansion can be seen as legitimate request by the community as all expansions will check off the necessary prerequisites.

The expansion system that is to be implemented will be impacted by geographic differences. That means there will be some different rules for different regions. This is to allow for current regional harmony to be maintained.

General Rules (GR):
1. All applications in the map thread must include a link to a reference thread. The application must be clear using the template shown in Exhibit A. An additional relevant link is required and further more are encouraged, especially links that display acceptance of the expansion or colony by other players. Failure to provide adequate documentation can have an application rejected. Colonial applications follow a similar format but use Exhibit B unless specified otherwise. There is a certain je ne sais quoi that embodies all regions and should be maintained. The mapmaker team will ensure that is respected.​
2. General applications of island nations, colonies, or expansions are determined by the mapmaking team and are supposed to represent their own geographical areas as well. Applications for such requests follow Exhibit A if they are primary nations, Exhibit B if they are colonies.​
3. New nations require 30 posts to be mapped. Secondary nation requests require 20 RP posts to be mapped. The mapmaker may be flexible in counting this requirement if a player has clearly engaged in spam or has a disproportionate OOC post count.​
4. If there is war/conflict or a heightened chance of war/conflict with another nation near your application and the mapmaker believes it may give unfair advantage to another player, the mapmaker holds the right to reject the application.​
5. If the mapmaker asks a question in response to an application and no reply is given, the mapmaker holds the right to not map the request.​
6. Nations/Players that are banned from the forum may be greened (erased) immediately. Players with an absence post may be greened from the map after two months of inactivity. A warning may be given as courtesy.​
7. The mapmaking team has no obligation to allow for micro-states to maintain the history of greened nations. The community is expected to be flexible when it comes to greened nations and rigid adherence to prior history is considered inflexible. A player may apply to add the intellectual property and geography of a greened nation to their own using the formatting provided in Exhibit A. Boundaries for such expansions will be reduced from the status quo.​
8. Players may not quit a concept or nation and green it if they are intertwined in a storyline of circumstance to other players. If they wish to move their nation or reboot, they must start a new nation with a fresh application from Exhibit A.​
9. The mapmaker may add or edit rules as needed for the purpose of managing the map application process. All changes will be announced.​
10. These rules are written with a certain intent of keeping the map processes structured and fair. This allows the mapmaking team address all concerns liberally with the goal of preventing player exploitation.​
11. The Touyou Ban: New entities in Touyou can be subjected to the Touyou ban as they must fit into the current RP climate in Touyou. This is subject to approval by Xen.​
12. The Engellex Rule: Players may not make colonies or expansions that use another nation’s background without permission. This also applies to new nations. — This does not forbid a player from creating a new ethnic or cultural themed nation of a similar type, but is designed to prevent players from using other nations as their background and exploiting another player’s intellectual property when a player may not want that. Permission must be granted in the form of a traceable post. For example: the colonial American wannabe themed nation of “Newland” cannot choose “Engell” as his cultural background unless the player gives permission. They could however create “Aland” as a new “English theme” in Gallo-Germania, from which future wannabe American themes could use “Alandish” as their colonial background if they were given permission by “Aland.” Please do not badger players to give their permission to allow your concept. They have the full liberty to ignore your request or deny it.​
The following section are the “Exhibits” which serve as the templates for applications. Applications should follow these templates exactly as they are shown. Answer the questions as best as you can. Word counts will be strictly managed and counted. They are designed to indicate that you understand what you are creating and how it will fit into the region you are joining.

Exhibit A
1. What is the name of your Nation-State, Colony or Expansion?​
2. What is the year of your foundation, recognition or colonization?​
3. Who are the leaders of this application? (≈100 words)​
4. Please outline the general history of your application: (500 - 600 words)​
5. Consider the cultural implications of your application. What does your application bring to the world? Are there other nations of similar culture? • How do you differentiate, or if you are unique, how so?: (200 - 300 words)​
6. How else might this application help RP or contribute to the community? (100 - 200 words)​
7. Please provide a link to a relevant wiki or thread. (1 minimum - Must be individually tailored, not a single post)​
8. Please provide precise verbal or graphic instructions for your application. (Failure to do this will invalidate the application)​

Exhibit B

1. What is the name of your Island Colony?​
2. Who are the leaders of this application? (≈100 words)​
3. Please outline the general history of your island. (200 - 300 words)​
4. Consider the cultural implications of your application. How is this enriching our world and/or is this just a vague trope of European imperialism? How might you avoid this narrative trap? (200 - 300 words)​
5. Please provide a link to relevant wiki, thread, or post. (1 minimum)​
 
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Pohjanmaa

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Written above are the General Rules for everything about the map that I could think of at the time. I’ll add things, delete things, change things over time I’m sure. That will be based on demands, needs, or community input. Thanks for understanding and I hope this makes the process far more transparent.
 

Nedernesië

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My suggestion would be to clearly separate the rules based on country application, colony application and greening. Right now it seems to me that the rules are all mixed up with each other and it is quite confusing to find the rule or rules that apply to your circumstance.

In general, however, I'm glad to see something in writing, even if there are plenty of out clauses ;).
 

Pohjanmaa

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My suggestion would be to clearly separate the rules based on country application, colony application and greening. Right now it seems to me that the rules are all mixed up with each other and it is quite confusing to find the rule or rules that apply to your circumstance.

In general, however, I'm glad to see something in writing, even if there are plenty of out clauses ;).
Heh, yeah perhaps I can stream line that a bit better. Perhaps at a future date. It was the result of needing to get it published ASAP because players kept bugging me about it ;)
 

Strathclyde

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[QUOTE="Pohjanmaa, post: 362723, member: 23"
3a. Expansion in Touyou is allowed so long as all neighbors of the area in question agree to the expansion. In Touyou this rule is more strict. Expansions absolutely must have approval from neighbors.​
3b. Colonialism in Touyou is not allowed. This region is strictly for Asian cultures and countries and they should not be subjected to European or similarly foreign influences.​

3c. The Touzen Rule: Xen is able to override the rules for colonialism and expansion in Touyou. This is to mean that Xen can approve applications if for some reason he felt inclined.​
3d. The Touyou Ban: New entities in Touyou can be subjected to the Touyou ban as they must fit into the current RP climate in Touyou. This is subject to approval by Xen.​
4a. Expansion and colonies in Himyar and the “Global South” is far more lenient but should follow the general cultural background or ambiance of neighbors. Approval is based solely on a player being able to demonstrate their ability to fulfill the requirements of Exhibit A.​
[/QUOTE]

My view on a Kraut gate keeping our RP Asia.
You must be registered for see images


Which in itself is seen as soft colonialism just excuse me while I find humor in the irony of anti-colonialism rules while at the same time where whole of RP Asia is controlled and dictated by a weeaboo.
 
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Pelasgia

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3b. Colonialism in Touyou is not allowed. This region is strictly for Asian cultures and countries and they should not be subjected to European or similarly foreign influences.​

3c. The Touzen Rule: Xen is able to override the rules for colonialism and expansion in Touyou. This is to mean that Xen can approve applications if for some reason he felt inclined.​
3d. The Touyou Ban: New entities in Touyou can be subjected to the Touyou ban as they must fit into the current RP climate in Touyou. This is subject to approval by Xen.​
4a. Expansion and colonies in Himyar and the “Global South” is far more lenient but should follow the general cultural background or ambiance of neighbors. Approval is based solely on a player being able to demonstrate their ability to fulfill the requirements of Exhibit A.​
Why is a single player (Xen) given compete monopoly over an entire region? When and where was this decided and by whom? The Anti-State is not the only state that has historically existed in Toyou and not all Toyou nations should have to conform to PDism. What if someone decided to bring back Seora or Xinhai?

Also, why is colonialism in Toyou banned but not in Himyar? And why are the Himyari nations not given a veto like Xen's? This is rather unfair and seems like favouritism written into black and white law.

I appreciate your effort into making some guidelines, but these rules should be debated and discussed before being approved. Also, in an attempt to create different rules for different regions, we end up with a set of rules that is too long and complex to be applied. Might I suggest trimming it down to a few rules that apply uniformly across all regions? Such as "new nation proposals must respect the general character of the region"?
 

Nichtstein

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Not about pouring oil on a fire or playing anyone's devil's advocate, but:

1) This is Xen's board, he pays for the hosting fees and runs the software. He can do what he wants. And so far what he wants is a corner of creative paradise, while letting folks sort everything out elsewhere by themselves.

2) Toyou is Xen's little corner of creative paradise where he can be as active or not as he wishes given his workload and RL issues. Hence also why half the map is the Anti-State with, to be very honest, comparatively non-existent RP and, thus, non-existent weight in the RP of all other players. You're the ones making Toyou relevant or not, the choice is yours, I don't see any proactive RP from Xen like you would see from Spelev.

3) Toyou has never in the past been a first choice for people dumping their nations anyway. People go to Euro-Disney or set up yet another USA in the Thaumantic pixels. It's just a big blob there that takes up space, but only seldom generates much interest.

4) This whole discussion is more about a theoretical right to set up in Toyou rather than an actual case. So far, only Taley I believe has any idea of a concept that would be in Xen's vicinity. Only one player.

5) Given all of the above, not sure it's worth anyone's time discussion this with any emotion or severity, being upset about this or even spending any time on this. Take is as it is and run with your own concepts elsewhere.
 
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Sylvania

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its really not that hard to follow. Also that single player runs and pays for the website. If he wants special rules, that really don't even affect you, then let him have it.
 

Strathclyde

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I have spoken to Xen privately, he explained to me how the rules aren't in his words "arbitrary tyranny" but you two saying Xen he runs the website so shut up is counterintuitive and pushes the narrative Xens creates special rules for himself for sake of it. When the truth could be complete opposite.
 

Nichtstein

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Then Xen simply needs to argument his views in public.

I personally have no issues with platform owners running different sets of rules.

I may not agree with them, but it's standard practice.
 

Touzen

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I am not even sure how to put this without sounding disingenuous or a number of people assuming bad things about me again, but I would honestly appreciate it if I was not being involved in some drama again, the last time I was even accused of doing something when I wasn't even around. I know that people here have a history with each other and given the impression certain people have of me is decisively negative they will always seek to frame me as having some ulterior motives, but just like other forum members I have made a conscious effort after the last drama to be more thoughtful and giving people the benefit of the doubt, so I would appreciate it if that went both ways and things are not immediately stated in a way assuming some evil Xen business being afoot here.

Also using this opportunity to say that if you have any issue with what I do IC/as an admin, please, please, please do not hesitate to reach out to me via PM. If I have portrayed an image of being unapproachable in the past, it is not one I want to perpetuate going forward.

The issue in question is a long standing map stipulation that Coro decided to also write down in this thread. There is nothing new about this, nor did I, or Ambrosia, ask Coro to expand upon anything. No proof about the last part but my word, but don't wanna leave Coro out in the cold here.

I am sometimes not even sure what exactly people expect me to do. If you would be more comfortable with me focusing on the admin side of things, I would be more than willing to do that and rescind my participation in RP if it continues to be a constant source of suspicion. I would in fact say it is an issue that I have found no good solution to over the 15 years I've been running the forum, except by periodically dropping from ingame activity. There is a good reason why when for example running a D&D game, a game master should never run a character in his own game.

I have recently enjoyed going back to RP in what little capacity I can, but more important than that to me is providing a great environment as an admin to the forum. I enjoy bringing technical and other improvements to the forum. That will always be my priority, and will (unlike my -spotty- participation in RP) always continue, no matter how busy my life might get. If cleaning up suspicions about my motives and making me be perceived as a more neutral arbiter regarding issues on the forum will require some alteration to how I partake on the forum, let's have an honest discussion about that. Again, not as a drama, but as a genuine effort to stop the circle of toxic scheming and suspicion that has too often dominated the page.
 

Nichtstein

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@Touzen

That's my own opinion that it's been indeed an issue for far longer than 15 years that decisions that impact RP are taken by players with direct or indirect stakes in the RP. So any decision will always create a backlash in terms of perceived bias.

So yeah, in my humble opinion, you'd need a non-RPing mod or admin base to try and run things. Yourself or somebody else.
 

Furlanìe

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I am not even sure how to put this without sounding disingenuous or a number of people assuming bad things about me again, but I would honestly appreciate it if I was not being involved in some drama again, the last time I was even accused of doing something when I wasn't even around. I know that people here have a history with each other and given the impression certain people have of me is decisively negative they will always seek to frame me as having some ulterior motives, but just like other forum members I have made a conscious effort after the last drama to be more thoughtful and giving people the benefit of the doubt, so I would appreciate it if that went both ways and things are not immediately stated in a way assuming some evil Xen business being afoot here.

Also using this opportunity to say that if you have any issue with what I do IC/as an admin, please, please, please do not hesitate to reach out to me via PM. If I have portrayed an image of being unapproachable in the past, it is not one I want to perpetuate going forward.

The issue in question is a long standing map stipulation that Coro decided to also write down in this thread. There is nothing new about this, nor did I ask Coro to expand upon anything. No proof about the last part but my word, but don't wanna leave Coro out in the cold here.

I am sometimes not even sure what exactly people expect me to do. If you would be more comfortable with me focusing on the admin side of things, I would be more than willing to do that and rescind my participation in RP if it continues to be a constant source of suspicion. I would in fact say it is an issue that I have found no good solution to over the 15 years I've been running the forum, except by periodically dropping from ingame activity. There is a good reason why when for example running a D&D game, a game master should never run a character in his own game.

I have recently enjoyed going back to RP in what little capacity I can, but more important than that to me is providing a great environment as an admin to the forum. I enjoy bringing technical and other improvements to the forum. That will always be my priority, and will (unlike my -spotty- participation in RP) always continue, no matter how busy my life might get. If cleaning up suspicions about my motives and making me be perceived as a more neutral arbiter regarding issues on the forum will require some alteration to how I partake on the forum, let's have an honest discussion about that. Again, not as a drama, but as a genuine effort to stop the circle of toxic scheming and suspicion that has too often dominated the page.
In my opinion, and with no hostile intentions (I know I can be a bit of an ass some times, I just need to express myself, keeping my mouth shut causes more harm than speaking my mind, and at the end we always find a solution) I think that you, as owner, supreme moderator and technician of this website, cannot own a global superpower position in-game without rising concerns, especially after the many publicly un-requested expansions and modifications that we have all seen again and again in the map.

I don't think you can't RP at all to be able to function as moderator, but you can't be an all powerful entity either, because as much as you do good you will always be perceived as having unjust influence over the stories of Europe, a big blob of little RP that won't ever change, and keeps the general geopolitical situation stuck with no hope to change ever.

make a nation, your personal paradise, make it average sized or small, find your place in the community without needing a whole continent, enjoy some internal RP as that doesn't need a fixed schedule, reach out to Europe in peace instead of waving your power around. And I am sure you will be much more happy.

As many use the "he pays for it, he decides" argument, why not instead making the website financial necessities public on a thread, and give us the opportunity to help.
I am not rich, I do a shitty job and when I'll finally manage to buy myself a house I'll have very little to spend, but I love this place, and I would love to help support it, even if it is just a little
 

Furlanìe

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Also, in regards to the rules:

Fuck that's a lot, can't we just have public discussions when such need is raised instead of going full bruxelles?
 

Ambrosia

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This seems like a good time to communicate what issues everyone is having with the game here, so I want to reiterate that folks with concerns should not be afraid to speak.

There’s nothing worse than thinking things are fine and then finding out someone’s been holding a grudge about an earlier issue the whole time. Let’s try if we can to bring ourselves back to the same table. Perhaps the table wasn’t safe, or isn’t, and that’s the issue there? I mean that some players don’t feel safe discussing the game or anything with everyone here?

These sort of threads seem to be more like outbursts, but never develop into long term dialogue unfortunately.
 

Taley

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I am not even sure how to put this without sounding disingenuous or a number of people assuming bad things about me again, but I would honestly appreciate it if I was not being involved in some drama again, the last time I was even accused of doing something when I wasn't even around. I know that people here have a history with each other and given the impression certain people have of me is decisively negative they will always seek to frame me as having some ulterior motives, but just like other forum members I have made a conscious effort after the last drama to be more thoughtful and giving people the benefit of the doubt, so I would appreciate it if that went both ways and things are not immediately stated in a way assuming some evil Xen business being afoot here.

Also using this opportunity to say that if you have any issue with what I do IC/as an admin, please, please, please do not hesitate to reach out to me via PM. If I have portrayed an image of being unapproachable in the past, it is not one I want to perpetuate going forward.

The issue in question is a long standing map stipulation that Coro decided to also write down in this thread. There is nothing new about this, nor did I ask Coro to expand upon anything. No proof about the last part but my word, but don't wanna leave Coro out in the cold here.

I am sometimes not even sure what exactly people expect me to do. If you would be more comfortable with me focusing on the admin side of things, I would be more than willing to do that and rescind my participation in RP if it continues to be a constant source of suspicion. I would in fact say it is an issue that I have found no good solution to over the 15 years I've been running the forum, except by periodically dropping from ingame activity. There is a good reason why when for example running a D&D game, a game master should never run a character in his own game.

I have recently enjoyed going back to RP in what little capacity I can, but more important than that to me is providing a great environment as an admin to the forum. I enjoy bringing technical and other improvements to the forum. That will always be my priority, and will (unlike my -spotty- participation in RP) always continue, no matter how busy my life might get. If cleaning up suspicions about my motives and making me be perceived as a more neutral arbiter regarding issues on the forum will require some alteration to how I partake on the forum, let's have an honest discussion about that. Again, not as a drama, but as a genuine effort to stop the circle of toxic scheming and suspicion that has too often dominated the page.
First I dont think you should stop rping. No one should stop rping.

i feel that the problem is that people feel that some of the rules my stifle peoples desire to rp/their creative process. Ethnic clustering was implemented to clean up the mess from classic and it has made rp better. Even then it was still flexible. This feels a bit rigid. People should be more free to rp their nation concept, within drunken reason. Both the new player and the old player they chose to sit beside will have to both adjust their rp by working together, not by making it a condition of their participation nor giving their potential neighbor a veto over the concept.

IF put a nation next to Kadikistan that is a complete 180 from his concept. we would have to both adjust our concepts to talking about our past interactions, collaborate on a shared history, in the end we would both have to tweak and adjust both of our concepts to accommodate one another. What shouldn't happen is Kadikistan get a veto on whether or not my concept is a go. as long as it fits the general ethnic guidelines is should be a go.

the other concern is these "unofficial rules" being enforce as rulez. If you want to create a new rule then it should be openly discussed by everyone prior to its implementation. This was done with ethnic clustering and that worked out successfully. Primary nations getting preference over secondary nations, i remember that being discussed too. If xen and xyreal want to have an industrialized asia that withstood European colonization, great! But that should be a rp concept collaboration, not a forum rule for the region.

Also if you want your concept to remain then you need to be here to rp it. If engellex wants engellex to remain on the forum then he needs to be present and rp engellex. If not then it shouldn't be forced upon anyone who wishes to rp an english nation. He should get a legacy knod for his past work, by making Engellex our byword for english like how UDO/Udrouah is our Arabs and arabic. If people want to rp an english or british nation then they should and no one should have an arbitrary veto over it, especially if that person isnt really around to rp it.
 

Sylvania

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IF put a nation next to Kadikistan that is a complete 180 from his concept. we would have to both adjust our concepts to talking about our past interactions, collaborate on a shared history, in the end we would both have to tweak and adjust both of our concepts to accommodate one another. What shouldn't happen is Kadikistan get a veto on whether or not my concept is a go. as long as it fits the general ethnic guidelines is should be a go.
This is not what actually happens in practice. It is nice way to think but anyone who has plopped down next to kadikistan has had to conform to his nation rather than. and really anyone who went there to begin with was willing to work with him anyways so it hasn't been a problem. His concept has long history to it and so does Xen's, I don't think asking new players who go into these regions to have a bit of respect for that long term history is wrong. Where the rule comes in is that many have started in toyou with huge concepts that forced xen to change his concept in ways he felt uncomfortable with and then after having done that work they poof and toyou is worse off for it.

Also if you want your concept to remain then you need to be here to rp it. If engellex wants engellex to remain on the forum then he needs to be present and rp engellex. If not then it shouldn't be forced upon anyone who wishes to rp an english nation. He should get a legacy knod for his past work, by making Engellex our byword for english like how UDO/Udrouah is our Arabs and arabic. If people want to rp an english or british nation then they should and no one should have an arbitrary veto over it, especially if that person isnt really around to rp it.
Well he does RP it and so does Engellex so I'm not sure what your point is here, especially considering that if someone wants to make an english nation of their own they are welcome to do so. Engellex has said as much himself. Engellex's issue came in the form of many people ( myself included ) wanting to use his concept in ways that he was not comfortable with, he exerted his authority over his concept and limited those who could use it and we as players need to respect that. Collaboration and compromise can only be taken so far, we all have the things we wont budge on and people have to realize that will always be the case, there will never exist a perfect environment of give and take here.

And can i Just say that many people here whine and complain about there being no rules, they then want to have say in every single word of the rule making process and when that happens on almost EVERY occasion the conversation stalls out and goes nowhere. This is why rules have failed to materialize every time. When the staff uses their authority to make rules, that most people here have been asking for, they then complain and act like children about it. It is really time for this to stop. These rules are not complicated, perhaps they could be organized better but in my opinion that is all that is needed.

Additionally I feel a lot of issues come up here because many won't speak to their problems, especially when it comes to having an issue with a certain person. They can't be bothered to ask or discuss that person privately, they would rather sit and think they are being restricted when really all they needed to do was put some effort and have a bit of a spine and go talk directly with the person they have a problem with. A large portion of the long term members here are between 20-30 years old, some even older. It is time to start acting like adults and hash things out without drama. Such things as this conversation here probably wouldn't exist if the people with the problem would just talk to xen about their issues with the toyou rules or those who feel they are restricted from RP'ing in toyou brought their ideas to him and hashed it out in the first place.
 

Asteria

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This seems like a good time to communicate what issues everyone is having with the game here, so I want to reiterate that folks with concerns should not be afraid to speak.

There’s nothing worse than thinking things are fine and then finding out someone’s been holding a grudge about an earlier issue the whole time. Let’s try if we can to bring ourselves back to the same table. Perhaps the table wasn’t safe, or isn’t, and that’s the issue there? I mean that some players don’t feel safe discussing the game or anything with everyone here?

These sort of threads seem to be more like outbursts, but never develop into long term dialogue unfortunately.
For the record, @Nichtstein the players who have played, with consistency and quality, in Touyou (besides Xen) are: Sikandara (Bel), Vangala (Norse), Shenzhou (Taley), Xinhai/Yujin (myself), and a guy from Hong Kong who played a Chinese country for about a year sometime around 2012?

As one of the players which consistently attempts to RP in Touyou, I'll speak on that a bit. This time around, I did not make an attempt to even create a country. Why? Because of the hoops I have to leap through, far and above anything I have to do for any other region, to do so. It significantly limits creative freedom, and I don't think that's conducive to RP. So, I didn't bother. It is unfair to say that the region should remain locked because people don't want to create nations there; the lock deters people. So drop that line of reasoning, because that line of reasoning suggests even if the region lock weren't around people wouldn't join, when in reality the region lock is self perpetuating.

As I understand it, the region lock is designed to create a consistent history, without worrying about other peoples inactivity removing chunks of continuity and forcing redesigns on long-time players. That said, I don't understand why Touyou is held to a higher standard in this regard. This is an everyday occurrence for the vast majority of the forum. It may be an inconvenience, but long time players such as Spelev, Eiffel, Bel, Louie and other vets have all from time to time been forced to accommodate significant changes to their geopolitical situation or even shared histories. I understand then that, as an admin with limited time, Xen wants to avoid this. So, ultimately, what bothers me is this:

There is an illusion of choice on this forum. The map suggests that there is a world to play in, offering up every available trope outside of fantasy or scifi. However, this is not true; the capacity to play in Asian tropes is denied. While Xen does indeed want neighbors to roleplay with, the restrictions imposed are seen at a glance as too high to overcome. And, with no guidelines on what might be accepted; why try? Why not just sink the rest of unclaimed Touyou? Or offer a path towards acceptance. Remove the illusion. Otherwise, getting around the region lock seems cliqueish, corrupt, or arbitrary.
 
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