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Military Q&A

Jutegn

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I know I made a list of costs to train the average infantry soldier by country. I covered something like 10 countries and I think I made it for Eiff. I shall see if I can find it when I get home. I think I have it on a memory stick
 

Nanxing

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In 1989 the U.S. Military's end strength was 1,900,000 and it's budget (inflation adjusted) was 654 billion.

In 1989 the USSR had 4.26 million active personnel and 5.56 million reservists with a budget equal to 13-30% of it's GDP which the UN estimates was 1.94 trillion in 1989.

In 1989 Israels figures were 141,000/504,000 with a budget of 9.8 billion plus 3.1 billion in US military aid.
 
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Thanks for the help. I compiled the information in a table for anybody's future reference. Any chance we can be told of the West German and Chinese equivalents the same year, to be added below?

Country
Personnel
ReservesBudget (US$)
US$/ca (active)
US$/ca (total)
Israel [SUP]1[/SUP]
141'000
504'000
$12'900'000'000
$91'489,36
$20'000,00
Soviet Union [SUP]2[/SUP]
4'260'000
5'560'000$1'940'000'000'000
$460'093,89$197'556,01
United States [SUP]3[/SUP]
1'900'000$640'000'000'000
$336'842,11

[SUP]1[/SUP] Israeli budget includes $9,8 billion of defence expenditures and $3,1 billion of US military aid.
[SUP]2[/SUP] Soviet budget is a UN estimate.
[SUP]3[/SUP] US personnel is an end-figure, possibly including reservists.
 

Eiffelland

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I took the French armed forces as model for my own armed forces. Now I am facing a problem. The French have the Rafale as their most advanced fighter, but I RP the Eurofighter Typhoon as my most advanced fighter. Suppose the French have 100 Rafales, how many Eurofighters could I have instead of those 100 Rafales? Or better said, how many Rafales would equal one Eurofighter Typhoon?
 

Breotonia

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Their base cost is equivalent (somewhere around US$100-120 million). Without getting too deep into research and development costs (which might bring the "real" cost of each plane up to just shy of US$200 million). It's likely that the biggest determinant for a difference in numbers would be the result of the Eurofighter not being available for production for as long as the Rafale. The problem is that without data on the production timeline of each (not RL data but your data) it's kind of difficult to say for sure how many of one are equal to how many of the other.

In the end I think the difference will be rather small, with some off the top of my head mathemagic I would say that you could have 80-90 Eurofighters for 100 Rafales. Kyiv or somebody might notice something I am overlooking though.
 
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TLDR: IRL Typhoon seems to be roughly 1.41 times the price of a Rafale (based on the most expensive prices of similarly intended variants Wikipedia names, Typhoon Tranche 3A and Rafale C), meaning that there is an almost 4.2:3 ratio between the two aircraft, at least cost-wise (4.2 Rafales for 3 Typhoons). IRP the ratio could be 1:1 for all we know. Cost aside, they are more or less similar, with the Typhoon having better air defence capability and the Rafale having better ground attack capability. General technical and other gabbing follows.

Without intending to give an authoritative answer on the matter, and without wishing to be partial, I believe that the Rafale and the Typhoon are more or less equivalent aircraft, including in costs and performance. The two main points behind their international procurement are cost and politics.

Other than that, the two aircraft seem rather comparable: the costs are in the favour of the Dassault Rafale (unit prices seem to range between 64 and 70 mn euros, as opposed to the Eurofighter's, which for Tranche 3A (the very latest, future version, to put it a little simplistically) seem to be around 90 million euros). Be aware however that in NS Europe the costs would more than likely be different, given different procurement and R&D stuff in our history. It is wholly possible that given current game history, our world's Typhoon (which is an international project as far as the VRL version is concerned; I assume you'd be using that as a company stakeholder and plant host) could be exactly equivalent to Rafale prices, while this world's Rafale, as a fully independent project, might end up more expensive due to development costs being more unevenly distributed, etc.

The Typhoon has been more produced than the Rafale has been in real life, and it currently has more operators as well (Rafale: France. Typhoon: Austria, Germany, Italy, S. Arabia, Spain, United Kingdom). Below you can see my collection of Wikipedia hard numbers and a comparison between the two aircraft (meaning the numbers can easily be skewered or wrong).

Comparisons between the two aircraft point that the Typhoon has a better engine with TVC capability, better manoeuvrability, and better air-to-air combat. Rafale on the other hand has been characterised a better "omni-role fighter" with better air-to-ground capability than the Typhoon and a naval variant as well, while Typhoon lacks operational naval versions. (Of course, I needn't really state the obvious here, ie. that they are meant for different use, but I will do so anyway.)

Technically, the Rafale offers a dedicated aircraft carrier variant, whereas the Typhoon does not. The Typhoon is also larger, faster, with better thrust and slightly less (200 kg) internal fuel capacity. The Rafale wins on take-off weight slightly (1000 kg difference). As of their ranges, according to Wikipedia: range for Rafale is 3700 km vs. Typhoon's 2900 km. Combat radius is cited as 1852+ km for Rafale (penetration mission) vs. four different ranges for Typhoon (two ground attack, two air defence; the penetration mission should be 1389 km). They have virtually the same service ceiling, and the Typhoon is given a "ferry range" of 3790 km (Rafale is given none, and this is very similar to Rafale's 3700 km range here, but I am speculating now). In terms of armament the Rafale can carry around 2000 kg more ordnance than the Typhoon, more or less carrying the same weapons (same generation aircraft, same alliance bloc after all).

When making your choice consider your air forces' conditions, including its existing and previous inventory, what its pilots might be accustomed to, (for instance India picked Rafale, but it has long experience with Dassault aircraft) and what logistics chains are you going for. Do you want a common logistics line with other nearby countries? Most (all?) Germanian League countries seem to be using the Typhoon, giving certain uniformity to the design. Do you want to stay true to French military design? Pick the Rafale, but this would create certain additional costs based on Eiffelland's situation - at least the way I see it anyway.

EDIT: puts Typhoon Tranche 2 ('current version' to put it simplistically) costs at around 55 million euros per unit, making it cheaper than the Rafale's equivalent 64 million. This means that under such costs the ratio would be 1.16 Typhoons per Rafale, if you want such a comparison.
 

Nanxing

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If you had a 100 Rafales and wanted to replace them with Eurofighters, you'd want the same number.

This is not me trying to be dismissive, the two are in the same class with broadly similar capabilities. One Typhoon is worth one Rafale and a smaller force of Typhoons is a less capable force.

The best analysis of comparative fighter costs that I know of is . The Eurofighter is a more expensive aircraft, but it's hard to say this is because of capabilities as opposed to it's lengthy development history.
 

Eiffelland

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OK. Thanks.

Follow-up question: I RP having aircraft carriers. To what extent is it allowed to assume that there is an aircraft version of the Tornado or the Typhoon?

EDIT: In our world, that is.
 
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I'm new to nationstates, and was wondering if military in RPs are allowed to have super soldiers as long as there is not that many of them?
 

Fennia

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I'm new to nationstates, and was wondering if military in RPs are allowed to have super soldiers as long as there is not that many of them?
We go generally by modern day technology around here, so by definition a strict "no".

Also, we don't have a lot in common with Nationstates per se these days. I'd advise you to take a look at various starting guides on forums and the wiki to get started. Also, welcome. :)
 

Khemia

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NSEurope attempts to follow realism as best as possible, and as such doesn't use things like NS stats or budgets or populations to determine what's available. Advanced modern-day technology used by players is typically looked down on, so futuristic stuff like gene-warriors and what not isn't permitted. If you're interested in RP here, though, feel free to PM me with any questions you have and I'll help out however I can.
 

Jutegn

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Take into account you have to be able to afford operating costs also. That includes training costs. Clothing your soldiers. Medical care for them. Fuel. And of course feeding costs. Feeding costs can run high unless you want to feed your soldiers like inmates at the maricopa county jail (60 cents a day per inmate). Just soe friendly advice.
 
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If you want "super soldiers", the closest you're likely to get is if you keep your military fairly small and pour a good part of your defense spending into an elite special forces unit. They may not be strictly superhuman, but no one in his right mind would ever classify, say, the Gurkhas as anything less than completely hardcore.
 

Eiffelland

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The easiest solution would be to take the armed forces of an existing RL country. You know the budget that existing country has, and you know your own budget, so after some multiplication actions you know what you have. That is how I did it.

The only thing I am thinking about for myself is that France has his Force de Frappe and I never RPed having nuclear weapons, only a missile shield. I really don't know how much a nuclear arsenal costs anyway. Apart from that, I would not have the type of country in which I can test the stuff. No desolate places like deserts or tundras, no remote small islands, and a democratic government — so I have to take the opinions of my people into account before I start drilling a hole to test my bombs in.

ADDITION: Oh, I forgot: Galomenia, welcome.
 
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Question: what impact will have on NSEurope military RP in the future?
 

Eiffelland

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I would pay that extra 60 Pounds for that cupholder.

I don't think it will change much in the near future, but maybe in five or ten years.... But I'm not a mod.
 

Breotonia

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Until they get properly deployed IRL they don't get deployed here. If you have the slightest hesitation about using a piece of really cutting edge technology or near-future technology then it's probably a no-go. You can always ask about specific items and a mod will get back to you. ;)
 
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