Occitania and Brecosta (att. all)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Eiffelland, May 13, 2019.

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  1. Eiffelland

    Eiffelland Well-Known Member

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    I have a question to you all regarding Occitania and Brecosta.

    It has been quite a long time ago that the player behind Occitania was last seen on the forum. Western Occitania is currently RPed by Serenierre, but what are we going to do with Eastern Occitania and the colony of former Occitania, Brecosta?

    When Occitania remains absent, also Eastern Occitania and Brecosta will have to become NPCs, but who is going to RP them?

    I know that at least one person on the forum will have strong objections against me becoming the main person behind Eastern Occitania, and he may not be the only one. Therefore, I think it would be better if I do not take up the task to RP Occitania and Brecosta as an NPC. But who else is going to do so?

    From an IC point of view, it looks to me that countries like Azraq, Natal and Pelasgia prefer to see Occitania leave Brecosta, because Occitania is a non-hymiary country. And of course Kadikistan would also prefer to see Occitania leave Brecosta, for its own particular reasons.
    Realisticly speaking, neither Eastern-Occitania nor Western-Occitania are in the position to keep Brecosta as a colony. Western-Occitania would not be able to keep it, because it is recovering from having been shot to a heap of debris. Eastern-Occitania could have kept it from the beginning, but also that country is in a rebuilding process after a deep economic recession, so on the longer run it would not be able to keep Brecosta as a colony.

    It should also be noted that the Camp Hill accords did not mention anything about the status of Brecosta, although it would have been most logical that it would have remained part of Eastern Occitania, because that country is the continuation of the Kingdom of Occitania.

    Anyway, like I already mentioned, Eastern Occitania won't be able to keep Brecosta on the long run according to me. My government would have told the Occitanian government behind the screens that it would be better for everyone to grant Brecosta independence, and to discuss that out with Azraq, Pelasgia, Gunnland and Natal (being the most important regional powers). And of course Kadikistan, but I think that I would informally discuss matters out with Azraq, Pelasgia, Gunnland and Natal first, and then, after having secured some support, with Kadikistan (of course with consideration for Kadikistani interests). Furthermore, Justosia cannot be ignored, either.

    What are your thoughts?

    @Justosia @Serenierre @Azraq Virumaa">@Virumaa @Natal @Gunnland @Pelasgia @Occitania @Touzen @Engellex W. Engell Republic">@W. Engell Republic @Lars @Friuli @Kadikistan , well, @all to be honest.
     
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  2. Justosia

    Justosia Well-Known Member

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    Ok yes I agree it's time to put this out here.

    I want to annex Brecosta. Frankly my claim is pretty damn strong. I fought for it already in RP. Occitania & I were allied militarily officially. My King already has the title Protector of Brecosta. It doesn't look like he's coming back at all. With this reasoning I'm confident he'd support me having it. If I have to handicap myself in another reasonable way to make regional powers find this annexation acceptable, I'd be open to it.
     
  3. Serenierre

    Serenierre Well-Known Member

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    Moi? Monsieur, vous avez raison. However, my opposition would not be out of any OOC dislike (contrary to public opinion, I don't hate Bert. Serenierre is anti-Eiffelland. The distinction is everything.) Rather, the issue here is for diversity. Eiffell, your style of gameplay I don't think would necessarily suit the sort of nation East Occitania should be in light of the Treaty of Camp Hill.

    Correct. However, if East Occitania grants independence to Brecosta, would it necessarily mean that West Occitania would view it as legitimate? That remains to be seen.

    I agree.

    By the way, Eiffelland, I've been meaning to chat with you. If you might have noticed I am writing a number of articles about the Seven Days War. I'd like to collaborate over one article on East Occitania. Basically, with my journalist character (not Sophie Menard) and your journalist character writing the article together. Maybe we could chat via facebook. Because it needs a bit of back and forth as I have a bunch of questions. Or would you prefer our ongoing direct message chain?

    The Serenien view would be the same that Brecosta is approaching independence. However, again, whether that means it becomes a Justosian colony is not a natural extension of that result. What would be the justification of allowing Justosia to claim the territory when there are larger powers in the region. Also, how would the Anti-State feel about such wanton aggression so close to its sphere. These are questions we need to be very clear about. We don't want a sudden crisis again (looking at that silly submarine drama a few months ago)
     
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  4. Justosia

    Justosia Well-Known Member

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    Again. I fought to keep it. The blood of 221 Justosian soldiers still saturates the ground. Plus I RP'd leaving a small contingency spec ops force. Occitania & I had a close alliance.

    Frankly I doubt anyone has a stronger claim than Justosia to it, & Justosia wants it. I've put in my time. Waiting patiently to make any moves.
     
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  5. Serenierre

    Serenierre Well-Known Member

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    If there is anyone who understands your situation it is me. I find myself in a similar predicament as you vis-a-vis Bezonvaux/Borovanger. I fought for it and actively engaged with it. And yet, it has been held to be a questionable pursuit nonetheless.

    However, disregarding the above, I don't reckon it is a good idea to think in terms of "claims" from an OOC point of view. If you have a special forces contingent there. Roleplay it doing something. See what happens.

    Furthermore, if Occitania and Justosia had a close alliance, does it make good sense for Justosia to be so predatorial and colonize a constituent domain from the Kingdom of Occitania when it is done? Doesn't seem honorable. The reason I bring this up is because for every OOC desire there must be an IC explanation, that is a rule of thumb which I think only serves to raise our community's collective standards.

    I am not necessarily opposed to any of the suggestions made here regarding Brecosta. But they need to be justifiable within the IC narrative.
     
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  6. Natal

    Natal Well-Known Member

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    It would be up to Pelasgia">@Pelasgia to see if Justosian presence there violates the SQT or not, I'd say.
     
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  7. Justosia

    Justosia Well-Known Member

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    I get that. Besides actually having to be in Brecosta, I have no interest in the Hammar Sea.
     
  8. Auraria

    Auraria Well-Known Member

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    Why not declare Brecosta independent and plop a military base on the island?

    Set up a government and be like “wow you should be so totally grateful that we granted your independence, aren’t you just so indebted to HRM? Isn’t he wonderful?” While pointing a gun at them.

    Setting up a puppet state will have significantly less IC backlash than a Justosian annexation of an island in the Hamar Sea.
     
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  9. Justosia

    Justosia Well-Known Member

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    Honestly that works. However is fine as long as it's officially mine on the map.
     
  10. Neustria

    Neustria Active Member

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    Gallia for the Gallians. Neustria is watching closely.
     
  11. Eiffelland

    Eiffelland Well-Known Member

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    If the outcome of this discussion is independence for Brecosta, how are we going to RP towards that?


    I have to think about this. Eiffelloretalians generally return the favour of Serenierre's hatred, i.e. most Eiffelloretalians hate the Sereniens as well. Luckily for the French language, they still like the Burgundians living in the Burgundy that is currently in personal union with Elben.

    EDIT: Natal already voiced his opinion as a mod/admin, but @Touzen, @Engellex and W. Engell Republic">@W. Engell Republic , what are your thoughts as mods/admins?
     
  12. Suomenmaa

    Suomenmaa Well-Known Member

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    You also have Swiss-like Protestant French speakers in the Jysk-Austwegian Grand Duchy of Pays-Petites. So many places to enjoy the French language

    Hello there guest. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
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  13. Engellachia

    Engellachia Administrator

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    With these tiered considerations

    A - The original player is gone
    B - No one that can be agreed on is willing to play the nation or state exclusively
    C - 1 volunteer wanted to annex it

    This seems like something that needs to be greened. I’d love to see ways for people to keep stories alive, but Brecosta may be unsalvageable. E. Occitania is important to the story of West, but again no one is playing it and no one will foreseeably?

    Prop 10 implied someone willing to play a part, but I think E. Occitania deserves further extension of NPC status as this conversation continues.
     
  14. Pelasgia

    Pelasgia Well-Known Member

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    Any presence of an external power in the Kalahari is theoretically a violation of the SQT. The two original purposes of the SQT were 1. to keep the major Kalahari powers from going to war by stabilising spheres of influence, and 2. to prevent any external powers from entering the Kalahari.

    Theoretically, both me and Kadiki would have to enforce the SQT by force or otherwise (e.g. sanctions, though knowing Pelasgian and Kadikistan we seem to prefer missiles to embargoes) to expel the external power, though since Spelev is AFK, that would be entirely up to me. That would give me a bit of leeway, but I doubt Pelasgia would ever allow such a blatant violation of the SQT.

    Off from this topic, I think W. Engell Republic">@W. Engell Republic has a point. There's really no reason (RP wise) for Brecosta to keep existing now that the player is gone. The story-line could be severed with minor repercussions for RP, and we could just relocate any storylines people want to keep to another colony (e.g. Cabaon if Ovi is OK with it - Natal">@Natal ).
     
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  15. Serenierre

    Serenierre Well-Known Member

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    But while we are all on this point of the Kingdom of Occitania (East Occitania). I will be writing an article about the situation in post-war Occitania fairly soon. There is a dearth of actual roleplay material to lean on so it will need to be pulled from OOC conversations and established canon. The goal of the articles is to bring a lot of the OOC context on to the IC record.

    In understanding the pre-war Occitania, it was clear that roughly speaking the industrialised base and more densely populated urban centres were located in territory that is now East Occitania, while the agricultural heartland of the country, as well as its more undeveloped areas were in the territory which is now West Occitania.

    I know that East Occitania is in a very dire condition. I think in many respects its economy must have imploded and politically it cannot be doing well at all. I think it will be impossible for the Occitan King to hold on if even Brecosta is lost. But I also am of the view that the entire saga has not really been effectively resolved and that the presence of East Occitania gives the map great opportunities for RP.

    So I agree with W. Engell Republic.
     
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  16. Natal

    Natal Well-Known Member

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    Could Brecosta as it is be deleted but its story kept for Justosia's new colony?
     
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  17. Suomenmaa

    Suomenmaa Well-Known Member

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    A few things...

    As noted, East is required for West... and Brecosta also requires East and West. Another player must at some point take responsibility for East. However, if that cannot be done, I find it bad form to green the entire thing because (I might suggest) we’re setting a precedent where a player can lose a war, and by quitting, ruin the gains of another player. This precedent can let players take revenge from the grave so to speak. So, should no one wish to take responsibility, I’d suggest that East and West be combined into the current Western spot, and retconned into Serenierre having outright won the war — thus, Brecosta being part of that. The Eastern spot can then be greened.

    Then, the Brecosta scenario has a different question. Justosia has troops in Brecosta and it has legally fallen under the jurisdiction of Serenierre’s puppet. Therefore the Brecosta scenario has an RP that is needed to figure out what happens.
     
  18. West Occitania

    West Occitania Active Member

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    1. I agree about bad precedents being established by such things.
    2. I have been analyzing this suggestion from a number of points but each one is precluded by one objection or the other in my mind. I need to hear what others in the community feel about this.

    PS: Friuli has on occasion said East Occitania should come under his control because of his Tiburan narrative. Perhaps we should hear what he has to say, as well.
     
  19. Friuli

    Friuli Well-Known Member

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    I could take control of it if you need someone to do it, since I don't want the country to be greend nor my nation to be completely surrounded by Serenierre">@Serenierre (I love you bud but I don't want to become greater San Marino)

    The problem is: it's no secret I wanted to seize some territory from e.occitania at some point, and that's a big conflict of interest.
    We might solve that problem by agreeing on a narrative together.
     
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  20. West Occitania

    West Occitania Active Member

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    In all honesty, I don't know why Eiffelland would continue to keep 150,000 personnel in Occitania when Villesen and Trier have signed a non-aggression pact during the Retalian Sea negotiations earlier this year. Even otherwise, the political pressures in East Occitania post-war mean that the old status quo simply could not continue. We are dealing with a situation where a revolution needs to have occurred.

    In many respects, I can easily imagine the Tiburans in East Occitania becoming nationalists and seeking union with Friuli to escape the chaos of the East Occitanian collapse.

    The issue here isn't that of the narrative, specifically, as there is more than enough juicy material here. The issue is we need someone to look after East Occitania as a trust of sorts. It's a personnel issue. I keep trying to say that the narrative here is insanely amazing to cooperate on just that no one is willing to wade into the dynamics.
     
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