OOC: Engellsea piracy

Discussion in 'OOC Threads' started by Pohjanmaa, Aug 13, 2019 at 11:24 PM.

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  1. Pohjanmaa

    Pohjanmaa Well-Known Member

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    I’d like to lodge a complaint in the sense that the AP is being used for non-factual reporting. See: http://www.europe-game.eu/index.php...-press-business-news.11097/page-8#post-357374

    No where has Pohjanmaa ever pointed the finger against the Engels for piracy. Nor has Pohjanmaa advanced any piracy narrative. Pohjanmaa has consistently fought against the piracy narrative even existing since the Retalian Sea conflict. So move your propaganda fluff piece to your own news thread.
     
  2. Beautancus

    Beautancus Well-Known Member

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    Naval defense and protective operations are a cause for concern for the Commonwealth, and as a result President Lepomäki has made the rare effort to get additional help from the Eduskunta, or Parliament. She spoke with Prime Minister Kari Virtanen on the issue and the need for more ships to meet the ever increasing needs of Free Navy operations. Debate is expected to consume much of the August Parliament’s time. ■


    Perhaps you haven't advanced one explicitly, but it is clear that you're more than happy to exploit and worsen the situation. Which, given the Domain's concerns about the Long Sea shenanigans, is more than enough inform a solid, fact-based opinion, as you've said.

    You're also being a little too sharp. Please calm down.
     
  3. Engellex

    Engellex Moderator Staff Member

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    Lloyd’s of Dulwich is an insurance and reinsurance market, not an insurance company. It is based entirely off Lloyd’s of London, including its size. @Nedernesië
     
  4. Nedernesië

    Nedernesië Well-Known Member

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    I'll edit my news post. Sorry for the mixup!
     
  5. Pohjanmaa

    Pohjanmaa Well-Known Member

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    It’s a propaganda piece in the wrong thread. AP isn’t to draw conclusions on random pieces of text. It’s a perfectly fine post, the domain can draw whatever conclusions it wants in its own threads. It’s the IC integrity of AP needs to be protected.

    As for Long Sea shenanigans and whatever basis you continue to draw from, from an OOC context they are untrue, but from an IC context sure, you can advance that plot. It’s well within your rights because many false plot points against PDism are advanced in at least 3-4 threads right now. That’s fine, but AP is for where the factual non-interpretational news is published.

    Lastly, don’t pretend to tell me I’m not calm, it’s rude. You’re just trying to paint a discourse that I’m being irrational from my point of view, and whether that is true or not doesn’t really matter. But I don’t appreciate being told to calm down when I am calm. So we can end that point of discussion right there.
     
  6. Engellex

    Engellex Moderator Staff Member

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    It isn’t propaganda. Could you list each sentence you believe isn’t factual?
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019 at 2:10 AM
  7. Beautancus

    Beautancus Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, it more seems you want to have your cake and eat it too, let's have some clarity.
     
  8. Pohjanmaa

    Pohjanmaa Well-Known Member

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    As you wish. I’ll deconstruct parts of it. However there is a bigger problem that I’ll get to in a bit...

    As far as I’m concerned no PDist nor Northern Council government has made an assertion that piracy exists in this region. It would seem that the Nedernesians and the Salians have. On that note I don’t know if Salen was ever accepted by the Northern Council, I know they applied and so my assessment of the Northern Council could be wrong there. Nedernesia is not PDist.

    The problem here is that the political analysts are presented as arbiters of fact. The entire text here is very speculative as it seems to project responsibility on the all of these actions upon PDists (which depending upon the incident, isn’t clear, or is down right lying in the case of the Serenien freighter), and furthermore incorrectly states that Pohjanmaa’s government claimed the Engels were behind the ambush. It’s government never did, and the news outlet only reported “as reported by the Salian news.” So yes, the Hamina went to the aid of a ship. When it got there, it was claimed that masked men disappeared. This was all Prop 10’d. That’s fine, it’s not unreasonable to have another player Prop 10 my ship to come to its aid. What is unreasonable is then to draw conclusions from that and present them as factual in an AP article.

    This is a huge conclusion to make and it’s not within any kind of quote. There seems to be no indication of conflict between the Engellexian Republic and Post-Delegationist nations. The only public comments made in regard to “Engellodomain” opinions have been in regards to the Burgundian War, which was suggested as “not supportive of” due to the HCS spreading. The HCS has been contentious as far as canon goes for a very long time.

    The general problem with this entire post is that it’s basically accusations “protected” within quotes from theoretical experts. The article has a strong bias, does not explore other avenues, sources, or present viewpoints from the greater factual pool of opinions. Yet perhaps that’s the biggest problem of it all, it’s all just opinions from one side of the story! There are other angles to look into, but you’re more concerned with waging a factual and economic war here. Newsflash, the world’s economic situation is shit, we all get that as its been posted in several news locations. I plan to RP recession (and the entire world ought to) at the end of the financial quarter. So what this article is trying to do is something different. I can’t obviously know exactly what you’re trying to do. But here we are trying to craft a narrative that suggests PDist pirates are to blame. With tensions ever increasing between the PDist and Engell world!

    What basis? Just because somebody said something doesn’t mean it’s fit to print. AP isn’t Breitbart. There are still journalistic issues to consider, and statements like these don’t make much sense. Beau pointed to my need for more ships for the ever increasing needs of the Free Navy, but that doesn’t mean ships appear tomorrow. Nor does it specifically suggest what kind of ships, or what kind of operations.

    This is another assumption in that the Post-Delegationists are behind the Den Gezant affair. An AP article would not publish this without a counter point when it’s a quote filled with so much conjecture. At least try to be neutral in your AP post.

    I think that is generally what I’m opposed to here. In a TL;DR conclusion: this article is just full of conjecture, presents it as fact, and then rolls with it.
     
  9. Nedernesië

    Nedernesië Well-Known Member

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    I would just like to make clear that in the Nedernesian foreign ministry statements, no country was ever accused by Vrijpoort of having orchestrated the piracy incident. Nedernesia simply made clear its distain for piracy and its desire to defend all merchant marine shipping and boost cooperation in the region to allow such defense. Overseas Relations and Cooperation Nedernesia has not blamed any country for the Salic incident. Full stop.

    Kthxbai!
     
  10. Engellex

    Engellex Moderator Staff Member

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    The statements from the governments of Pohjanmaa and the Anti-State support the claims from Salen, with the latter being the only non-Engell government calling for an investigation into the incident.

    the Free Navy can only hope that it will continue to be able to respond to Salian distress calls in the region with haste. Yet, this cannot always be assured as an attack can happen far faster than a vessel’s ability to react to a radio call for help. During this period of time, the Free Navy will run continuous sorties through the Engellsea in effort to assist and protect shipping. - Pohjanmaa

    We will continue to closely monitor this developing situation and do recommend the Pohjanmaan Free Navy for having taken decisive action in defense of free merchant travel. Much as in other maritime bodies, free commercial traffic must be preserved in the Engellsea as well. - Anti-State



    You're incorrect here. It isn't speculative as it relates to Hammersmith accusing the Post-Delegationists of being responsible for the false claim of piracy. Comparisons to the incidents in the Long Sea and the Retalian Sea are valid as this would legitimately be seen as being part of that established pattern of behaviour. Everything mentioned in those respects are factual. The Serenien freighter was attacked by anti-state pirates and then rammed by a submarine, before Eiffelland clumsily hit it. Only Pohjanmaa had submarines there. That is what Europe knows.

    In your news article :- The curious aspect is that the pirates were Engell, and they did not seem to steal anything. And - This would highly suggest state involvement

    And in your government post to Salen - As the conflict in the region sows distrust and certainly instability

    Prop 10? Not sure what you're referring, but I am drawing everything from IC, not OOC.

    The piracy incident wasn't real. It followed no logic, escaping everything that could be reasonably assumed IC in respect of the Engellsea and NoCRER, and completely ignored everything that has occurred (so it seems) within the Long Sea and Retalian Sea. Given Pohjanmaa's presence at the center of two very big and very recent maritime incidents, whose only origin was to sow instability and provoke war in that region to further PDism, which are factual IC and widely accepted as factual IC, an incident in the Engellsea against the Engellexian Republic would escalate tensions exceptionally.

    The Republic has presented intelligence that debunks the piracy, even so much as to cast doubt on the presence of the Den Gezant in the region, or the lawfulness of its activities. Like I said above, the pattern of behaviour previously established, and the development of this situation, strongly implies Pohjanmaa intrigue once again. War was almost provoked against Eiffelland-Retalia, and the Anti-State threatened to destroy Auraria, because of Pohjanmaa intrigue against freedom of navigation. It is only understandable that the Republic would suspect Pohjanmaa of similar motivations, and, like North Korea IRL, it shouldn't be surprising in Europe to learn of another roguish action / behaviour from your government. Pohjanmaa behaves like a rogue nation, provoking and escalating incidents all over Europe, while throwing around ideological terminology as to manipulate the Anti-State into guaranteeing the continued coverage of its security umbrella else lose face internationally.

    The Engellexian Republic would harbour no interest in becoming entangled in Pohjanmaa drama, and Pohjanmaa should be able to interpret that as strongly as the Republic asserts its lack of interest.

    I am not suggesting PDist pirates are to blame, I have constructed it so that piracy did not take place and does not exist in the Engellsea.

    Sure there are accusations, for this entire incident is founded upon accusations. Accusations that make no actual sense, meanwhile the counter accusations do, as they follow the Pohjanmaa pattern of behaviour.

    I'm not arguing with you, I am in fact attempting a civil discussion. There isn't a need to be so hysterical.

    I have not presented opinions, but facts. The comments from the Joint War Committee are facts organised in favour of the wider opinion in the industry, as this story is anchored on how the piracy claim has been received and further navigated by the maritime insurance industry, an area that the Republic has leadership over. Official statements or remarks are far more neutral, reflecting matter-of-fact perceptions of what is or has happened.

    I'm not sure what you're asking or demanding, in respect of this being one sided. Everything has been pulled from yours and others posts. I wouldn't presume to have the right to RP a statement from your government in a news article, hence the political analysts anticipating a rejection from your side on the finger pointing from Hammersmith. Unless you mean to demand that all AP posts be made on a multi-player basis, which would be new and different, given how posts above and in the non-business thread have been written.

    What?

    You're being overly critical here. I am attempting to engage with an IC narrative that is exhaustingly weak, that follows from a similar one made recently, and settle it without issue or drama. I'm not a journalist and I do not pretend to be, I am merely making attempts to RP here. It is incredibly difficult to remain entirely neutral on this forum, as you should know, and writing news articles from one side will sometimes appear somewhat one sided for we do not have everything at hand, like journalists IRL.

    Should you feel strongly that standards need to be improved for the AP, I can accept that. I won't, however, be willing to write articles that require a week of back-and-forth in PMs to satisfy your standards of neutrality.
     
  11. Touzen

    Touzen Administrator Staff Member

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    Hi,

    No comment on this thread in general, just on two matters mentioned here:

    1) The AS statement was more de-escalatory and called for rational diplomatic discourse
    2) There were no AS pirates, there were people using an AS mechanism to declare themselves stateless during the events. No idea what the original nationalities were
     
  12. Pohjanmaa

    Pohjanmaa Well-Known Member

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    I think this is where you don’t understand that it is not the place of our governments to doubt the occurrence. If Salen states in his RP that he was attacked, we can respond to that. Pohjanmaans are not jerks and will not simply state, no. This did not happen. The response is tactful and diplomatic, and in no way suggests greater support of the claims. Instead the statement merely states that an attack can happen... we’ll run sorties (cause that’s a natural response to a potential security problem).

    Except you don’t seem to even know what actually happened in the Retalian Sea as you’ve just stated. The Serenien freighter was never attacked by anti-state pirates, and in fact was never attacked by pirates at all. The Eiffelloretalian Navy decided to shoot first, ask questions later and as a result we’ll never know what those people actually wanted to do because they never got the chance to act upon it when a submarine of unknown origin hit the Hyacinthe. So yes... 100% speculation. Pohjanmaa was not the only nation with a submarine there, and that’s because another submarine hit the Hyacinthe then vanished.

    That’s simply restating the news as understood from Salen.

    I didn’t have my ship save his ship. Salen RP’d my ship taking that action. Thus he “lite-Prop 10’d” my ship going to save his ship. I don’t see that as an unreasonable RP move as I am a nation with an Engellsea coast. Furthermore, my ship never had the ability to see what happened. It arrived, and everything was ok. Thus we had to trust the Salian ship’s narrative. (If you want to judge us on that, then of course that is your right, but I’m not sure how reasonable that is.)

    The problem is since your narrative is incorrect in the Long Sea and Retalian Sea I can understand why there is a misunderstanding.

    The problem again is that Pohjanmaa has always advocated freedom of navigation. Pohjanmaa has never fired upon any vessel unless fired upon first in the case of Auraria. So I don’t understand the North Korea narrative. Sure you can peddle that narrative, but again it makes no sense in AP I think.

    I don’t feel like addressing the other points anymore since we now know that cause of the misunderstanding is simply in that your understanding of the events in the Retalian and Long Seas are well incorrect. Just because Pohjanmaa was there doesn’t mean we did anything. Just because Eiffelland or Auraria might think we’re planning doing something malicious and then they act upon that suspicion, doesn’t mean we were actually going to execute something malicious. I feel like you’ve let Eiffelland and Auraria’s narratives OOCly guide your thought process here. On an OOC level there is only one actual event that literally happened.

    Retalian Sea
    1. Pohjanmaa goes to stir trouble
    2. Others stir trouble, and Pohjanmaa never gets to stir trouble.
    3. Auraria and Eiffelland blame Pohjanmaa anyway.

    Long Sea
    1. Pohjanmaa goes on a bit of a sail with a Jolly Roger flag.
    2. Auraria asks vessel to identify itself.
    3. Pohjanmaa identifies as “stateless” a common Anti-State call sign.
    4. Auraria fires on it, and surprised Pohjanmaa fires back.
    5. Auraria registers hits.
    6. Pohjanmaa sinks after mysterious explosion on the ship.
    7. Auraria believes it to be a sub that did the last deed.
    8. Pohjanmaa asserts that Auraria did in fact sink the Espoo.

    That order of events is indisputable, and nowhere on there do PDists ever promote piracy other than Pohjanmaa’s tongue in cheek Jolly Roger flag now flying on every vessel.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019 at 8:59 AM
  13. Engellex

    Engellex Moderator Staff Member

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    I will delete the post, it's fine, I just do not want more drama with you.

    It needs to be said though that you make it impossible to be motivated to RP on this forum for me. If it wasn't for the fact that Beau, Kyle and Jurzy would be seriously annoyed at me for moving on, I would have already gone. It isn't fun or interesting. It is one OOC issue from you after another, and each one is an incredible reach, that only serves your OOC perceptions that are truly incorrect and throughly mixed between IC and OOC.

    Even going on Discord, now, and seeing what you are peddling on there, in relation to this. I have NEVER forced my IC culture or RP on a single player, and have even gone as far as to remove my RP and myself from being around other players as to resolve/prevent issues. I have also been outlining an OOC post to move forward IC that would assist with integrating better with the player base's understanding and expectations - like phasing out the HCS, phasing out the ETCOS/ETCAS, allowing religion to be protected in the Republic, and fully handing over the power status of Engellex to Beautancus, becoming a major power that allows players (such as yourself) to RP directly with the Engellkin and not have to interact with Engellex. I have wanted to do this so as to improve mine and everyone else's experience here. Yet I know it wouldn't be good enough. I know you will find something else to drag me with. Your OOCisms here and on Discord prove that.

    Some neutral advice, as again I'm not being argumentative here, Coro, you've bought by your own propaganda.

    For me, I shall resign myself to world building, it is what I feel comfortable doing right now. Please can you, and those few other players, not take that as a cue to continue pulling down everything to do with Engellex IC and OOC. It would be greatly appreciated.
     
  14. Pelasgia

    Pelasgia Well-Known Member

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    Why was the Espoo near Auraria? PDists can't pretend they're blameless when they sail near foreign countries like it's nobody's business. Precisely when they have now gone through the trouble of fabricating a piracy claim in the Engellsea to prevent other countries' warships from sailing near them.

    For me this poses an immense RP problem. The submarine might be of unknown origin IC, but OOC someone has to have controlled that sub, and that someone has to take ownership of it, otherwise people can do posts about "unknown" armies conveniently acting to escalate things in a direction they want without them ever having to take responsibility. This is also why I hate the "Shadows", but that's a separate issue.

    Unless, of course, the submarine never existed and you RPed your own ship as sinking when it was nowhere near damaged enough to sink. That would be indicative of 1. wishful RP that does not concord with what others have RPed, and 2. bad OOC coordination between the players, or a complete lack thereof. These are the reasons why we usually have warmods and moderators in general. I feel the whole Long Sea Crisis RP is plagued by these problems, which is why we keep seeing so many OOC disputes and even fights over it.

    I generally don't like intervening in OOC threads where I don't have a reason to be involved, but I do feel Engellex has a point in saying intransigence is very negative and not at all motivational for RP.
     
  15. Nichtstein

    Nichtstein Well-Known Member

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    @Engellex Never considered you as trying to impose anything on anything.

    Now, Beau is quite assertive on Discord, but that's another matter, not relevant here

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    Had I not been absent from forums due to both a busy real life and a deeply rooted OOC disagreement with one player around here, well, Retalians viewed Engellex as a fellow seafaring culture, holding a lot of respect, even before Engelkin became mainstream.

    So yeah, I'd suggest something I didn't manage to do in my time, breathe in, breathe out and live the day

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    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019 at 8:23 PM
  16. Touzen

    Touzen Administrator Staff Member

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    There are no fabricated PD piracy claims in the Engellsea. Let’s not spread more fake news the likes of which are already plaguing the Long Sea issue and let’s please stay on topic.
     
  17. Beautancus

    Beautancus Well-Known Member

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    I don't want to do this anymore. I'm going to ignore things that I want from now on. I'm going to make up things that I want from now on. Coro, you are operating in bad faith, as disingenuously as I have ever seen - I don't want any part in that.

    You have been horribly disrespectful to me in all of this, and have just about sabotaged my will to RP altogether. I will not interact with you anymore, for a while. Blah blah blah, I give no shits, eat it.
     
  18. Clarenthia

    Clarenthia Well-Known Member

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    The only thing I want to add, and then will promptly run away, is these two posts where Auraria gathered and then released information from the Espoo that clearly shows Pohjanmaa’s intents to deceive the world into thinking piracy is a situation to then justify military intervention into the Long Sea, thus where the PD fabrications are coming from.

    Now at the same time apparently no body gave a shit and this wasn’t investigated further. So I suppose it’s up to players to decide who is lying in whatever case. Naturally, there’s a lot of OOC drama - that I helped cause - surrounding what is seen in IC. Further, it isn’t entirely clear - given the nature of the Shadows and lack of further investigation into the truth - what is “Factual” IC vs. “Narrative IC.”

    I can agree that perhaps the AP wouldn’t directly accuse Pohjanmaa of fabricating piracy claims, but I can equally see that as a narrative that nations hold. Therefore, when similar events occurred in the Gothic Sea (which is close to Pohjanmaa) it isn’t that much of a stretch to accuse Pohjanmaa of meddling there as well.
     
  19. Beautancus

    Beautancus Well-Known Member

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    I've just spent a little time looking over the coverage of the recent AP stories on the events in the Persian Gulf. Using this as something against which to base Louie's article - you're wrong, he's right. His article conforms to the same standards present in those articles.


    Ha ha, you're Iran.
     
  20. Nedernesië

    Nedernesië Well-Known Member

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    I just want to point out that Salen RPed his ship being attacked by pirates. All his article said is that they appeared to speak Engelsh with an accent that would presumably make them Engellexian.

    That's RPed. That means it happened, right? It doesn't mean that the pirates are Engellexian - that was just a thought posed by the news article or the ship that was attacked. Could that be used to speculate that they were sponsored by a state? I suppose so. Or maybe they were just private citizens (who happened to be of Engellexic origin) and they decided to attack a Salic ship.

    I don't know the answers to this I am just confused why people are claiming that there was no attack at all on the ship. Can someone please clarify this?

    I remember back in the day when things got this 'heated' a mod would simply rule and that was that, everyone carried on in a jovial and civilised manner. Maybe we need that back because these OOC threads are getting to be really annoying.

    Peace.
     

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