OOC: Long Sea Authority

Discussion in 'OOC Threads' started by Touzen, Jun 24, 2019.

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  1. Touzen

    Touzen Administrator Staff Member

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    Can we please not post diplomatic messages in a character meeting thread? I've never seen it happen to this extend before, but it's definitely not the place to put communiques. I can create some sort of thread in the Diplomacy forum about this group if you guys want to react, but please do not drown the character posts under diplomatic statements.
     
  2. Touzen

    Touzen Administrator Staff Member

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    Hi guys, gonna have to bump this thread again but for other reasons.

    I think we need to have a general understanding of the flow of time of the conference, because it appears to me as if Eiffel is going to RP the events at the conference continuing in real time. Meetings in the world of NSE always have the funny notion of being outside the space-time continuum, it is what allows us to have characters be in several places doing several things at the same time owing to the real world constraints put on us in terms of our time management. It's from that understanding that I suggest that we do keep the thread in 'meeting time'.

    There's also the matter of the Eiffelander delegation leaving the conference. This is, of course, a perfectly valid move in RP, but I think we should have been given a chance to react to this without being presented with a fait accompli. The question of the actual weather condition in Kashtan is connected to this, but becomes relevant based on the outcome of this first matter.

    I did not originally want to raise these points but feel I have to before one side continues too long under one assumption while the other side assumes other facts, and reconciling these narratives would become increasingly difficult the longer we wait.
     
  3. Pohjanmaa

    Pohjanmaa Well-Known Member

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    Something to add on is that there are things impacting this RP that are coming from the news from the TT thread. TT is like AP, in that things posted there are factual, in so much as say a dust storm grounding planes means that there is indeed a dust storm. Similarly, articles like Eiffelland’s stroke would imply there is an actual stroke happening. Since Eiffel in other RP has indicated that this is actually a falsehood, designed to get his delegation to leave (no idea why they can’t just decide to leave without outside interference), that would mean that Eiffel’s government is spreading “fake news” much like many dictatorships would, and that we’ll all get to identify that in time.
     
  4. Eiffelland

    Eiffelland Well-Known Member

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    It would be the first time that I ICly spread fake news. On the other hand, that happens even in democracies with centrist governments; a different story is fed to the press to keep everything calm or mask that something's going on without us knowing what exactly.

    For my decision to let my King have a serious disease (maybe a severe pneumonia would have been a better option), indeed I wanted to leave the conference, but I didn't want it to look like an insult. Therefore, I created the fake news that my King was life-threateningly ill, because of which my Chancellor had to fly back. So the Chancellor had to leave because of a domestic emergency, not by saying "Sorry Hayabusa but I won't sign this".

    In any case, @Touzen, I agree with your notion that we have to take real time into account. However, This Long Sea Authority thing is coupled to so many things, among others my relations with other countries, that I can't timely decouple it from other events.

    For the dust storm, I changed post 20 of the IC-thread to indicate that there is indeed a dust storm.

    I also think that it would be wise to discuss how we will proceed from here. I have the following questions:
    1. Should I presume that my Chancellor is still in the meeting room, i.e. is a new change to post 20 needed?
    2. Will my Chancellor still have heard what Dictator Hayabusa said in post 19 of the IC-thread?
    3. Will the dust storm disappear at a certain moment? If yes, will my Chancellor be able to leave the country?

    Auraria">@Auraria / Clarenthia">@Clarenthia , what are your thoughts?
     
  5. Pohjanmaa

    Pohjanmaa Well-Known Member

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    Understandable. It works very much in the spirit of the time or at least the short period of time, but will have long term consequences once others realize they’ve been duped, as a stroke has long-term effects on a person and I imagine your King will have none of the sort. Although, the illness of the King in general also still has at least Lepomäki wondering, what do they hope to do that requires them to leave, or at least not leave a capable diplomat in their place?

    The longest term consequences I fear are not those who are at the conference though, but for nations like the Two Kingdoms, maybe Auraria or Natal, which bank on honesty and relationship building and will find it difficult to trust Eiffellander news. Yet those are not nearly as important as the consequences for your general public I imagine. They’ve been told the King had a stroke! Then there is no stroke? It’s a line that’s been crossed in regards for an Eiffellander citizen and the trust of their government. Furthermore, your news publications will find it extra hard to trust the government line now. Everything they publish they know they could ruin their trust the public will have in them as independent journalists. None of these are earth shattering, but it’s a rabbit that cannot be put back in the hat so to speak. Similarly to how the public perception in the United States towards their government, as I’d argue the consequences of Vietnam and Watergate forever live with us regardless of who is President. Again, nothing so horrible, but it changes our perceptions.

    Your numbered points are good questions, but I think Xen is better to answer them with it being his conference.

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  6. Touzen

    Touzen Administrator Staff Member

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    I think the way we proceed depends on what you are most comfortable with. Would you like to rewrite the post and proceed with another action or would you instead like me to write a post detailing Hayabusa’s response to the departure? The Eiffellander delegation wouldn’t be held at gunpoint.

    The storm I think really ties into whether we consider these actions all to happen in a single day.
     
  7. Eiffelland

    Eiffelland Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for the delay in my answers. There is a difficult and time-consuming problem at work I have to deal with. I cannot answer at this moment (09JUL2019 01:40 CET). I hope I can answer in depth after I return from work "tomorrow" (i.e. around 09JUL2019 22:00 CET); otherwise I will answer on the Western European Wednesday evening.
     
  8. Auraria

    Auraria Well-Known Member

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    My thoughts on this are that there needs to be some sort of suspension of disbelief that the participants of the conference cannot react to events that happen *after* the conference begins. That includes Beautancus' announcement that he is opposed to the LSA. I think our nations can respond however we want to that, but the delegates at the conference shouldn't have that info.

    I likewise think that the delegates at the conference not having access to the internet or any outside form of communication is ridiculous but I'm not going to die on that hill.

    I also think that having Eiffellander media outlets just go "whoops, sorry we got the diagnosis wrong" would be one avenue to salvage the whole fake news thing. However, the Aurarians will take a very clear, very obvious note from Eiffelland-Retalia that when our two countries teamed up to oppose a Post-Delegationist expansion, Eiffelland-Retalia straight up got up and left the conference.

    And finally, I think the dust storms should be real and agreed upon and the idea that Chancellor Rheinfeld is being held hostage should be dropped.

    Those are my two cents y'all.
     
  9. Eiffelland

    Eiffelland Well-Known Member

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    Sorry. I still don't have time to react. I am still working on that big problem at work.
     
  10. Eiffelland

    Eiffelland Well-Known Member

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    OK. Again apologies for the delay. However, I think I spent my time well by doing something I should have done six weeks ago, when I worked a total of 40 hours on debugging a SAS-syntax of the size of the Bible: I started again from scratch.

    Now back to RPing business.

    Regarding the King’s illness, theoretically it is possible to recover completely from a stroke, but then the amount of damaged brain tissue must be limited, the patient must be young, and the patient has to spend several years on rehabilitation. My King is 62 years old, so that is a no-go. I realised that after I posted that stroke. Therefore, I put in my own newsthread that the original announcement was wrong, and that the patient is suffering from a meningo-encephalitis instead of a stroke, because when treated very quickly, you can recover from a meningo-encephalitis without any long-term effects. The only thing I did wrong, is that the concept of a bacterial meningo-encephalitis is not defined.

    Auraria">@Auraria, you said that we should presume that the people inside the conference room have no contact with the outside world. @Touzen, Pohjanmaa">@Pohjanmaa, Nicosia">@Nicosia, if you agree, I will follow that approach.

    If we follow that approach, I need to change posts 17, 18 and 20, as well as a post in my newsthread. Furthermore, @Touzen, you need to change post 19.

    I want to suggest to do the following:
    1. My King’s illness will be a real one, and it will be a bacterial meningitis. The reason is, that there is no need to fake that my King is ill if I cannot use that as a strategy to get my Chancellor leave the conference early.

    2. In Post 17, one of the aides of my Chancellor walks into the room with a tablet. That part will be scrapped.

    3. Post 18 will be completely rewritten, and will only consist of events happening in Eiffelland-Retalia.

    4. In Post 19, the paragraph telling that my Chancellor is looking at his tablet will be scratched. The only reason why my Rheinfeld would look at a tablet during a meeting like this one, is that he was made aware of something urgent that he had to read. He won’t be made aware of that, however, because the conference room is closed.

    5. Post 20 will consist of my Chancellor politely leaving the conference.

    6. Post 170 of the “Tidningarnas Telegrambyrå - World News Repository” thread will be modified. I will remove the sentence that the Chancellor is flying back to Eiffelland-Retalia. I won’t remove the stroke out of it, because it could be that other people referenced to it. I will add to the post that the newspaper cites a press release by the Palace: “According to a press release by the Royal Palace, King Albrecht suffered from a stroke…” By doing it this way, I do not violate the principle that what is posted in the Tidninggarnaswhatever is not coloured by the government, because then the newspaper in question just cites the press release without saying that it is true. The result is that the press office of the Royal Palace indeed has made a mistake.

    7. Posts 577 and 578 of my own newsthread will be modified: The bacterial meningo-encephalitis will be changed into a viral meningo-encephalitis.

    8. Consequence of my King’s disease is that he will stay out of business for three months to recover; he will return to work in the beginning of October. Until then, my Crown-Prince will be the Prince-Regent.

    I will definitely carry out the points 7 and 8 to correct the medical mistake. For the points 1-6, I would like to have your thoughts.
     
  11. Pohjanmaa

    Pohjanmaa Well-Known Member

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    Quite a bit of retconning. I don’t mind. Of consequence is that you’re “leaving the conference” and all that is left is Auraria, Nicosia, and Serenierre hypothetically there? Is Lars here? What about East and West Occitania?
     
  12. Lars

    Lars Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if I'm at the conference, if I've been there I've always been silent.
     
  13. Eiffelland

    Eiffelland Well-Known Member

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    For East Occitania, that is up to Auraria to decide.

    For West Occitania, that is up to Serenierre to decide.

    Lars, from my point of view, you can be at the conference.

    Pohjanmaa, if you consider it more logical that I stay at the conference, I can stay.
     
  14. Pohjanmaa

    Pohjanmaa Well-Known Member

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    Well, your desire to be there, and sudden reversal and departure would only cement Pohjanmaan preconceptions on Eiffelland after the Retalian Sea affair. If you stay or go, it will impact our relations going forward differently... leaving early sends a clear signal that you have no interest in working with us, and you showed up only so that you wouldn’t miss out on something big if you could seize it. Your decision is ultimately yours, and how you proceed is how you will be viewed by post-delegationist nations. (Although your recent message is already quite anti post-delegationist, so I mean you’re already RPing in that direction anyhow)
     
  15. Eiffelland

    Eiffelland Well-Known Member

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    Well, anti-postdelegationist, I want to avoid war in the Long Sea, and for that, I need to convince the Postdelegationists to stay away there. That is my naive side.

    My realistic side knows that it does not make sense to me to fight a war about the Long Sea on the side of the Postdelegationists, and that it is bad to me in general to be considered part of the Postdelegationist Camp.

    As it looks now, establishing the Long Sea Authority will likely lead to war, and not establishing the Long Sea Authority will likely lead to war as well. The chances for Eiffelland-Retalia are better when it fights with Pelasgia against the Postdelegationists.

    OK. Before I modify posts 17, 18 and 20 of the IC thread, @Touzen, Auraria">@Auraria, what are your opinions?
     
  16. Pohjanmaa

    Pohjanmaa Well-Known Member

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    I find your analysis of the regional intricacies as a bit off. I don’t assume to see war with Pelasgia unless they desire to start it, which I wouldn’t understand because the LSA doesn’t change reality on the waves. Post-delegationists are cruising about the Long Sea because we cannot trust the Long Sea nations to enforce peace and defend our assets. You have to remember, this is all the fault of Long Sea nations and their overzealousness, and as you battle us, it reinforces those assumptions.
     
  17. Touzen

    Touzen Administrator Staff Member

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    I have no particular objections I think Eiffel, just do what makes you feel comfortable with the thread.

    I feel though that the elephant in the room has to be addressed, even though Coro and me will no doubt look like the bad guys for doing so.

    It’s obvious that Jurzy has lost interest in Auraria and, indeed, went on the record saying that he never cared about this Long Sea RP at all. He announced a prolonged absence, however managed to make a lengthy reply with Auraria to a diplomatic thread that is related in the broadest sense to this one. This creates facts that constantly stack up against the PDists, while no reply is forthcoming in this thread to propel it forward at a fair pace.

    With his secondary nation, Clarenthia, Jurzy has been very active (including lengthy character posts), despite his absence, going so far as to participate in a war thread on the attacker’s side, while not being enthusiastic about participation in a thread that hasn’t even led to war yet, but would put Auraria on the receiving end. This nation also has been critical about what’s been happening in the Long Sea, which creates a similar problem to the conflict of interests Coro is now trying to discuss in his new thread regarding his two nations.

    For the sake of fairness and allowing us to continue rping other things without being held back unreasonably by this RP as we have been for a while now, I think a solution has to be found.

    If the only thing keeping Auraria on life support is this thread, Jurzy, then I’d be fine with you greening it and working out something with the others in this thread on what PD gained from his affair (the alternative being to void this RP which would void much of the PD rp, which I think Coro and me are not ready to do yet). You can then focus on your other nation as you have already been doing and we can move on, but something has to happen.
     
  18. Auraria

    Auraria Well-Known Member

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    Welp, a few things here.

    1) Interest in Auraria
    No, I have not lost all interest in Auraria - but let's take a look at its current state. Auraria is involved in a military alliance that poorly RPed from the beginning with Serenierre, Friuli, and Neustria - the first two of which are inactive and the third is in a bit of a pickle at the moment. Additionally, Neustria/Bourgogne was just attacked by Beautancus and Engellex. Discord is chattering away about simply excluding Serenierre from being able to participate in both these RPs, which while I understand the OOC motivation for that, that then means that Auraria is facing the Anti-State, Pohjanmaa, Engellex, and Beautancus by itself. That's not a situation I'd like to find myself in, yet is being thrust upon me.

    2) Disliking the Long Sea RP
    I said that I dislike the RP focused on the Long Sea for a numbering of reasons. Firstly, I believe the shadows submarine RP was poor. I believe the actual situation with the Espoo was poor RP, in part considering that Auraria did not even sink the thing but no one cares. Then, when I raged over your reaction and the fact that I clearly misinterpreted the strength of Touzen, which continues to remain abundantly unclear, you were kind enough to work it out OOC and deliver the ultimatum, which I responded to the same day. Then, 66 days later, you responded to that ultimatum and we picked up where we left off. Now you switched jobs and were busy OOC, I respect that and am not attacking you for you, I simply stating that I RPed Auraria for 66 days before the LSA came back and abruptly changed the calculus.

    3) My Absence
    Here is my absence post on July 8th:
    "My activity over the next couple of weeks or so is going to be slower (same for Clarenthia for those who don't know I RP both). I will be lingering a bit and will make posts as necessary. If I am too slow to respond to something and its causing a problem, just let me know and I'll try and get it done."

    Here's my schedule the next few weeks:
    Monday, July 15 - Thursday, July 18: Camping in the Mountains
    Thursday, July 18 - Sunday, July 21: Beach trip 4hrs away
    Thursday, July 25 - Sunday, July 28: 2nd Camping trip in other mountains
    Friday, August 2 - Sunday, August 4: Visiting Friends in Maryland.

    The days not listed, which are almost exclusively Monday-Thursday, I have a demanding day job that - coupled with all the travel I'm doing - will become exceedingly difficult for me. Additionally, on those free nights, its entirely possible I'll end up going out for drinks, dinner, or seeing a movie with friends - taking time away from RP.

    Here is a list of all the significant Clarenthia posts since posting my absence post:
    2 Lengthy Reformation Posts - the bulk already written, just needed touching up and filling in
    1 Lengthy Kamachina Empire Post - this had been written and talked about for about 4 weeks before the final touches allowed it to be posted.
    1 Response to Nedernesia - Written after it happened, took about 10 minutes
    1 the Bourgogne Post - Admittedly took time, but an enjoy full post.
    1 News Post - pretty simple write up of current events (but took time)

    Granted, 6 to Auraria's 0 is compelling, but why would I post in the LSA Conference thread when we haven't decided what Eiffel did or did not do yet? I assume that would have a significant impact on what Auraria's response is.

    4) Potential conflicts between Auraria and Clarenthia.
    Clarenthia criticized the LSA after Beautancus did, the nation very much so follows the lead of Engellex and Beautancus. Additionally, I don't think the opinion of Clarenthia would weigh heavily on the considerations of the LSA, certainly not has heavy as Pelasgia, Kadikistan, Engellex, and Beautancus. Therefore, I find this point to be a reach.

    5) Greening Auraria
    I have been extremely consistent on both discord and this post that Auraria is a very important project to me that I've spent a significant amount of time building up. It's currently in a corner because every-time I do something with it, its allies become inactive meanwhile those who would seek to work against it ramp up their efforts. However, for you to say to me that you're okay with me greening Auraria and deciding what pickings you get - that's very offensive. You're not ready to void this RP because it voids a lot of the storyline surrounding PDism, but you're perfectly fine with me voiding my entire country? No, that's ridiculous.

    I'm sorry that my RP isn't up to your standards and you're upset that a lot of my creative energy is somewhere else. However, Auraria is not going to get greened - so unless I'm just entirely overruled by admin powers, that's that.

    So, then, I guess we're going to have to look at another option.
     
  19. Touzen

    Touzen Administrator Staff Member

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    Both you and Coro have second nations to RP with while this thread drags on. I don’t. Yet I have to consider the outcome or lack thereof of this thread without a clear decision the entire time, making it very difficult, if not impossible, for me to contribute realistically elsewhere.

    You speak of not wanting to face a huge coalition (that doesn’t even exist, on that note), but the RP outside of this thread seeks to move things towards building a coalition the other way, while the thread itself doesn’t move on and the dynamics inside are affected by outside events while they realistically shouldn’t be. That’s an unfair disconnect.

    I also feel that you could have replied to the thread already even without Eiffel, and certainly faster before the flush even became an issue. Which again, I understand is derived from your lack of interest in Auraria, which you yourself on Discord a while back mused about greening.

    Your RP energy is going elsewhere while I can’t put my RP energy elsewhere without also starting a second nation. I really think this affair should be concluded ASAP, one way or the other.
     
  20. Pohjanmaa

    Pohjanmaa Well-Known Member

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    I will note that Auraria should probably be all kinds of pissed off at the Engells for butting into Gallian affairs though? It’s a similar problem I’m having, where Pohjanmaa is on one end and the Two Kingdoms are on the other. How can we RP our nations in opposition to each other meanwhile maintaining all the moments and opportunities that they should? It’s honestly thinking about your case that I wondered, where I am not being faithful to the full concept of my own nation? It played a role in the psychology of my merger question post.
     

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