Pelasgia 2.5

Discussion in 'Worldbuilding & Wiki' started by Tiburia, Oct 31, 2018.

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  1. Tiburia

    Tiburia Well-Known Member

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    Please also see the wiki page (Pelasgian Empire).
    I realised that I haven't done/updated a factbook in a long time, since I've instead done all my background/wiki updates on the wiki itself (you can find the wiki page here, under Pelasgian Empire, because Pelasgia doesn't work for whatever reason). Since the older factbook versions are outdated, I decided to do this thread instead (hence 2.5).

    I'm also thinking of some new aspects for the "new" Pelasgia. Namely:
    1. Ethnicities: Do away with the Georgians/Hiberians and replace them with Berbers to fit the Mediterranean-Middle Eastern mix better. The Armenians/Haydians will remain, since there's plenty of them (or there used to) in the Middle East and Anatolia. I'll also try to flesh out some of the other minorities (Jews, Catholics, Gallo-Germanian communities) more.
    2. Languages: Apart from the Old Pelasgian dialects which are spoken in northern Pelasgia Proper (basically medieval Greek dialects to 19th century regional dialects of Greek), and the pure forms of other languages (Armenian, Arabic, Yevanic & Hebrew, Berber), I plan to have most of the populace speak a vernacular lingua franca; it'll be based on modern demotic (not standard) Greek and will have Armenian, Berber, Arabic and some "Latin/Frankish" influences (loanwords, expressions), as opposed to Turkish and Slavic loanwords etc. foudn in IRL modern Greek. This language will be called "Tivouriot", "Pelasgiotic" or "Tiburian/Modern Koine" and will be the people's everyday language, which will be contrasted with the official, archaic and pure varieties of the Empire's languages, especially Koine and Katharevousa Pelasgian. It will resemble the "hard" vernacular demotic of early 20th century Greek cities, especially the more mutlicultural ones like Thessalonica, Constantinople and Smyrna.
    3. Class: Expect language politics to be a major theme, alongside class politics as the Empire is divided into the "Archons/Leaders" (Western-educated ethnically "pure" modern urban ruling class) and the "Koinoi/Common People" (the agrarian, mixed populace of the countryside and provinces which is pouring into the cities as part of the population boom and urbanisation efforts that will follow Pelasgia's modernisation). Like the White and Black Turks in IRL Turkey (I'll be borrowing pretty hard from Kemalist themes for the Nationalist period), these will be an economic benefit for the Nationalsit agenda, but will come to bite them in the ass in time, as the Koinoi are much more religious than secular and multiculturalist-monarchic than ethnically purist-republican.
    4. Cities vs Countryside: I was thinking of having some coastal cities with special privileges ala Hong Kong to boost economic growth. As the Nationalists try to modernise the country, they'll remove their privileges and seek to integrate them into a more unitary structure. These will be much more modern and Westernised than the rest of the country. Even if they don't end up having separate legal status, cities will still be quite different from the countryside. Coastal metropoles will have 1st world status and the further inland one goes the country will be 2nd world and even 3rd world very deep inland. So modernisation will cause quite a lot of friction.
    5. Military: I've been thinking on this for a while. Since Pelasgia has a conscript military, it makes little sense to use expensive EU-US gear. I'll still use Western tech for my navy, naval aviation and the marines (which are professional and get the most funding as they're the core of the Empire's power). However, the AF and the land forces will probably make do with some cheaper/eastern gear, a mix of the military equipment of Cyprus, Serbia and the Eastern Bloc. I've already kinda of hinted towards this with an emphasis on strong AA systems (like S-300 clones) over a highly advanced air force, so I'll get down to changing the gear in due time.

    Thoughts on all of this?

    PS: I'll still post updates on the wiki page(s), but I'll post here and link to them to let y'all know.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  2. Azraq

    Azraq Super Moderator

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    Potential area of collaboration: I'd love to have the history of Islam and the Urodoah established a bit more in NSEurope.

    One idea I had considered was to have our Mecca and Medina in Azraq and recast Islamic culture as having Afro-Asiatic rather than Arabic roots in NSEurope.

    The other that was maybe the Southern Tiburan Empire ended up occupying the two cities and the torch of Islam as it were ended up being carried by Azraq and other Nethian / Black Himyar societies.

    Currently undecided. Would you be open to the second option? Would give Pelasgian a claim to be the protector of all Abrahamic faiths. This would set up a good clash with Azraq too, as the Ibrahimiyya claim to be restoring Abraham's monotheistic legacy (adopting the Muslim trope that Christianity is polytheistic thanks to its Trinitarianism while condemning Judaism for its rejection of Jesus and Mohammed).

    Either way, I see, particularly in western Azraq, which is inhabited by the Qaraf (Afar) abd Ooba (Beja) peoples, there having been Nubian-style post-Tiburan Christian kingdoms that eventually succumbed to Islam before spreading east into Dawamalian (Somali) and Shamo (Oromo) lands.
     
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  3. Tiburia

    Tiburia Well-Known Member

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    I'm not opposed to it, it's certainly original and more useful IC than waiting for a long-term Arab state to pop-up. Where would those cities be? My guess is Memphis (since it's Afro-Asiatic) or the area near Hierosolyma? Also, I'm not sure whether the Pelasgians would be too keen on calling themselves protectors of any faith other than Orthodoxy due to theocracy and the Emperor's claim to being the Orthodox Christian God's representation on earth. But he could claim that they are his vassals. I already have the Karaite Jews as the Empire's desginated state-approved sect of Judaism, so maybe the Empire's state-approved Muslims could be the Alawaites or the Mevlevi Devrishes. They could make up a nice small minority centered on the two cities you mentioned.
     
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  4. Tiburia

    Tiburia Well-Known Member

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    So based on some conversation with @Beautancus I've come up with an idea. The Eastern Archipelago (which you can find in my map as the Theme of the Thalassinoi) will have some Anglo influence, both in cultural form (cricket, dress etc.) and in the institutional form (Common Law in local laws, Britishpstyle local police, government and education etc.). This will be the result of the Beautancus Cotton Company taking over the area as it's the gateway to Memphiot (Egyptian) cotton and also rich in agricultural resources like olives, rasins, silk and tobacco, on top of a general strategic position in the Kalahari's bottleneck. This will have taken place due to repeated pirate raids from the area on Beautancus ships in the ~1770s. This would be the spark of the Komnenian Revolt against the Vatatzes Dynasty to try and rejuvinate the Empire (which would itself fail leading to the 1820s Revolution and the resulting modernisation until the successful breakthrough in the 1850s-1860s, culminating in the 1863 Western-style Constitution). The Empire would retake the area in 1860-1865 (either before the revolt granting the army the prestige needed to revolt or after granting it to the new constitutional government) in a short and crashing campaign against the Company using a army trained by Western military advisers and up to western standards (including some advisors from Beautancus for extra irony, though most would be from Eiffelland, Kadikistan, Bourgogne and maybe Engellex; because the Occitanian states would have less historical bad blood with the Empire, I could actually change this and make it so the Engellexian and the Engellsphere, including Beaut, have more of the advisors but whatever). Almost 100 years of Engellexoid rule would surely be enough to set in some traditions, like in Cyprus and (to a much lesser degree) the Ionian Islands. I also plan to make this a very wealthy and advanced-westernised part of Pelasgia that would be a sort of model/poster child for modernising the rest of the country. Thoughts?
     
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  5. Beautancus

    Beautancus Timeout

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    Completely at your disposal in all regards here, I'll draw up a brief list of the more pertinent names and claims to fame.
     
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  6. Azraq

    Azraq Super Moderator

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    Let's see how Himyar pans out with the map shake up. Perhaps Mecca and Medina could be lost or destroyed cities believed to have been located somewhere within the present-day territories of Pelasgia (maybe the Crusades were wildly successful and managed to effectively stamp out Islam in its Urodoah heartland, with remnants fleeing to what is now Azraq and converting the rulers there...)

    Still toying with the idea of making Islam Azraqi however... decisions decisions!

    My only question here would be why would Beautancus have a colony so far away (and so close to Engellex)?
     
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  7. Tiburia

    Tiburia Well-Known Member

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    It's all up to you

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    I'm willing to work out with whatever you decide.

    Perfectly valid question. I was originally planning to have Engellex do it, but I mentioned to Beaut in a convo and he offered himself a tribute. I guess it'd be like if the US stuck around after the Aegean Anti-Piracy Operations and the Battles of Tripoli Harbour. I'm open to all input an this, whatever works to make it more realistic. ( @Engellex @Beautancus )
     
  8. Beautancus

    Beautancus Timeout

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    Market interests more than anything, cotton in particular. Beautancus also comes out of the factory with a bit more of an international interest, having been founded by a/the Engellexic Thaumantic or Occidental Company, and acting as an early node for some elements of international trade in the era. The spitball of the circumstances was that it began as something like an early American Barbary Pirates adventure, with a bit of Admiral Perry "opening Japan" to trade. A demonstration of our arrival, so to speak, though it would prove to be a bit of overreach, and would revert to more traditional governance/ownership after not terribly long.

    Primarily, it demonstrates the potential to reach for Beautancus very early, as well demonstrating the influence the Clarendon Cotton Exchange Company has always wielded over government policy. Which might be pertinent for Azraq as well, in thinking of a manner in which to demonstrate that latter point in the present day.
     
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  9. Tiburia

    Tiburia Well-Known Member

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  10. Tiburia

    Tiburia Well-Known Member

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    I've been saying I wanted to switch a lot of my gear to Eastern Bloc/cheaper equipment to fit my conscript-based army and mass-mobilisation doctrine, so I finally got around to it, using a mix of Serbian, Yugoslav and Cypriot gear. So here goes to very first proposal:
    (You can find my current equipment in Military of the Pelasgian Empire; if anybody could tell me how to do a table so I can show the current piece of materiel and the one replacing it, that'd be amazing).

    Military equipment revised:

    Equipment of the Imperial Pelasgian Army:
    a. Small Arms & Support Weapons:
    -Service rifle: CETME/G3 (unchanged) OR AK-74
    -Newer rifle: HK33 (?)
    -MG: MG3 (Unchanged) OR [RPK/Zastava M72, PK MG]
    -Sidearm: USP (unchanged)
    -Sniper rifle: Kefefs (unchanged) OR Dragunov SVD
    -SMG: MP5 (unchanged) OR PP-19 Bizon
    -Missile launchers: RPG-7, Type 133 Anti-tank Missile (Kornet), 9K38 Igla, 9K32 Strela-2

    b. Vehicles & Artillery:
    -MBT: T-90 OR T-80 OR T-84)
    -Older MBT: T-72 OR M-84
    -IFV: Kentaurus (UNCHANGED) OR BVMP M-80 OR BMP-3
    -APC: Leonidas 2 (UNCHANGED) OR BTR-80
    -Self propelled artillery: Nora B-52, 2S19 Msta, 2S1 Gvozdika, [BM-30 Smerch, BM-21 Grad, BM-27 Uragan] OR [M-77 Oganj, M-94 Plamen-S, M-87 Orkan, BM-21 Grad]
    -Multiuse Vehicle: Tatrapan (UNCHANGED)
    -Other artillery: [Type 256 Heavy Mortar (E56 120mm), Type 244 Mortar (E44-E 81mm)] OR [Gun-howitzer M84 NORA, 130 mm towed field gun M1954 (M-46), 122 mm howitzer 2A18 (D-30)]
    -Other missile or AA artillery: Type 261 Tactical Ballistic Missile (OTR-21 Tochka), Type 260 Rocket Artillery (ACCULAR), Type 300 Air Defence System (S-300), 9K35 Strela-10, 2K12 Kub, ZSU-23-4 Shilka, 2K22 Tunguska, TOS-1, 9K33 Osa, Tor missile system, Buk missile system, 9K31 Strela-1, S-125 Neva/Pechora
    -Logistics: just some Yugo, Greek and Russian jeeps and trucks, who cares

    I'll be doing a part 2 with aircraft probs tomorrow. Feel free to give feedback, this is far from final.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
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  11. Tiburia

    Tiburia Well-Known Member

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    Military equipment revised part 2: Air force

    Equipment of the Imperial Pelasgian Air Force:

    Fighter aircraft: Sukhoi Su-27, Mikoyan MiG-29, Mikoyan MiG-29K & Sukhoi Su-33 (for the Imperial Pelasgian Navy), Sukhoi Su-24, Mikoyan MiG-27, Soko J-22 Orao
    Trainer/Light Attack Aircraft: Utva Lasta 95, Soko G-4 Super Galeb, Soko G-2 Galeb
    Heavy aircraft: Tupolev Tu-16, Ilyushin Il-78, Ilyushin Il-76, Ilyushin Il-38, Tupolev Tu-142, Antonov An-124 Ruslan, Antonov An-225 Mriya, Antonov An-12, Antonov An-22, Antonov An-26, Beriev A-50
    Helicopters: Kamov Ka-50, Kamov Ka-226, Kazan Ansat, Kamov Ka-27, Mil Mi-8, Mil Mi-17, Mil Mi-24, Mil Mi-26, Mil Mi-28, Mil Mi-38 (undergoing tests), Mil Mi-6, Mil Mi-14, PZL SW-4
    Air defence systems: S-300, Tor MS, Aris AAMS

    -----------------------------

    New uniforms:
    The Pelasgian armed forces deserve a new look, now that their equipment has changed:


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    Equipment for inland units

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    Ceremonial uniforms of the Imperial Guard (winter)

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    Equipment for coastal/arid units (marines/professionals)

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    Equipment for coastal/arid units (conscripts/national guard)
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
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  12. Tiburia

    Tiburia Well-Known Member

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    Military equipment revised part 3: Navy (kind of)

    List of Active Ship & Boat Classes:

    (unchanged)

    List of Aircraft, Missiles & Misc equipment:
    -Carrier-based aircraft: Mikoyan MiG-29K & Sukhoi Su-33
    -Heavy aircraft: Tupolev Tu-142, Antonov An-32, Antonov/Taqnia An-132, Ilyushin Il-112
    -Helictopers: Kamov Ka-27, Kamov Ka-226, Mil Mi-6, Mil Mi-10, Mil Mi-26, Harbin Z-9(?)
    -Anti-shipping missiles: Kh-22, P-70 Ametist, P-270 Moskit, P-120 Malakhit, P-500 Bazalt, P-800 Oniks, 3M-54 Kalibr, Kh-35, Kh-15, P-700 Granit

    Current missiles (some may be redundant now, I'll have to check):
    -Type 106 "Spourgites" Cruise Missile (AGM 86)
    -Type 107 "Keraunos" Cruise Missile (Tomahawk)
    -Type 108 "Exokoitos" Anti-Shipping Missile (Exocet)
    -Type 109 "Kamax" Anti-Shipping Missile (Harpoon)
    -Type 216 "Glaros" Missile System (RIM 116)
    -Type 217 "Thalassolykos" Missile System (Seawolf)
    -Type 266 Missile (RIM 66 S)
    -Type 267 Missile (RIM 67 S)
    -Type 270 Missile (AGM 78)
    -Type 99 Special Underwater Rifle (APS)
     
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  13. Beautancus

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    It seems like it, but just to make sure - will it be that you're going fully, fully, fully native-built/Kadiki bought or licensed, or are you going to have some room to have done some deals with the nations of the Thaumantic Domain over the years? Will adjust a few things in the background as needed.
     
  14. Tiburia

    Tiburia Well-Known Member

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    My focus has always been native-built (for strategic reasons, even if it means worse gear) which is why rn I'm thinking of doing another version with a mix of Eastern-Euro and Western-Euro gear and more stuff used by non-USSR Eastern Euro countries. Currently a bunch of my aircraft was from deals with Eiffelland, so I see no reason to have no deals with the Engells. Realistically, no country can produce all its gear by itself, not even the US IRL.
     
  15. Beautancus

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    Ok, basing my remarks on talks from elsewhere and some while back in the way of historical joint R&D (as it doesn't feel like you recall, from your response). Depending on how all the history pans out it may be more sensible for it to have been/is now a solely transactional relationship.
     
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  16. Tiburia

    Tiburia Well-Known Member

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    Version 3:

    Equipment of the Imperial Pelasgian Army:

    a. Small Arms & Support Weapons:
    -G3 (unchanged) / vz. 58 / Zastava M70 / Rk 62
    -MG3 (unchanged) / Zastava M72 & Zastava M84, Zastava M87
    -USP (unchanged)
    -Kefefs (unchanged) / Zastava M91
    -MP5 (unchanged)
    -LRAC F1 (unchanged), Kornet (unchanged), MILAN (unchanged) / RPG7, M80 Zolja, M79 Osa, Strela 2, 9K38 Igla

    b. Vehicles & Artillery:
    -Leopard 2A6 & Leopard 1A3 (unchanged) / TR-85 & M-84 / M-84AS & M-84 / T-84 & M-84 / Type 96 tank & M-84
    -Kentaurus IFV (unchanged)
    -Leonidas 2 APC (unchanged)
    -GCT 155mm / Panzerhaubitze 2000 / PLZ-05
    -VBL (unchanged)
    -[Some Yugo and Czech trucks and jeeps, see my auto industry for the models]
    -Tatrapan (unchanged)
    -Nora B-52, M84 NORA, L118, E56 120mm, E44-E 81mm
    -ACCULAR / M-63 Plamen, M-77 Oganj
    -S-300

    Equipment of the Imperial Pelasgian Air Force:
    -Dassault Rafale (undergoing trials from Eiffelland) - maybe replace?
    -Chengdu J-10, Shenyang J-11
    -Xi'an JH-7
    -Utva Lasta
    -E-8 Joint STARS (unchanged; bought from Eiffelland) / Embraer R-99
    -KC-10 Extender (unchanged, bought from Eiffelland / Ilyushin Il-78
    -Avro Vulcan (unchanged) / Xian H-6
    -CN 235 (unchanged)
    -Hawker Nimrod (unchanged; perhaps cooperation with the Thaumatics? @Beautancus @Engellex)
    -Lockheed C-5 Galaxy (unchanged, bought from Eiffelland) / Antonov An-124 Ruslan, Antonov An-225 Mriya
    -Transall C-160 (unchanged)
    -Eurocopter Panther (unchanged) / Harbin Z-9
    -Eurocopter Cougar (unchanged) / NHIndustries NH90 / Mil Mi-17
    -Chinook (unchanged, license built from Eiffelland) / Mil Mi-26
    -Sea Stallion (unchanged)
    -Eurocopter Tiger (unchanged) / Harbin Z-19 / Mil-Mi 28 & Mil Mi-24 (& Kamov Ka-50?)
    -PZL SW-4
    -S-300, Tor MS, Aris AAMS (unchanged)

    Equipment of the Imperial Pelasgian Navy:
    -Ship & boat classes unchanged
    -Dassault Rafale (undergoing trials from Eiffelland) - maybe replace?
    -F/A-18 Hornet (unchanged, license built from Eiffelland) / Chengdu J-10, Shenyang J-11
    -Hawker Nimrod (see Air Force)
    -C-27J Spartan (unchanged), CASA/IPTN CN-235
    -Eurocopter Panther (unchanged) / Harbin Z-9
    -Sea Knight (unchanged) / Mil Mi-14
    -Missiles (unchanged): AGM 86, Tomahawk, Exocet, Harpoon, RIM 116, Seawolf, RIM 66 S, RIM 67 S, AGM 78, APS
    -Perhaps: BrahMos
     
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  17. Engellex

    Engellex Moderator Staff Member

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    As I intend to go with historical productions and RD of the majority of UK armaments, though not all (Challengers, for example, being a Cussian toy), we could work these as points of successful Engellexic arms sales to Pelasgia? As rare as they are. Not advocating restrictions or anything, likely continued cooperation over maintenance and upgrading. Also a useful IC point for future possible arms trading between us.
     
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  18. Tiburia

    Tiburia Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't mind it, we could mix it with some production licencences/joint development perhaps, so I wouldn't run out in case of war. Which items are you thinking of in particular?
     
  19. Tiburia

    Tiburia Well-Known Member

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    Made a preliminary diagram for the Pelasgian Court System. Thoughts? It's based off the Greek court system, to nobody's surprise, since that's the Court System I'm most familiar with, but I did make some importations from the Japanese Court System (chiefly because I plagiarised their Supreme Court). Haven't gotten the actual workings dealt with yet, might import some Engell ideas to fit ModernisationTM.
     
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  20. Tiburia

    Tiburia Well-Known Member

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    I think I'm finally going to go ahead with my switch to more low-cost military equipment. This is my final draft:

    Equipment of the Imperial Pelasgian Army:
    a. Small Arms & Support Weapons:
    -Assault rifles: Zastava M21 (new service rifle), Zastava M90 (older rifle)
    -Battle rifles: G3 (old service rifle, being phased out)
    -Machine-guns: MG3
    -Pistols: USP
    -Sniper rifles: Kefefs
    -Sub-machine guns: MP5 (older), UMP-45 (newer)
    -Missiles: Kornet, RPG7, M80 Zolja, M79 Osa, Strela 2, 9K38 Igla

    b. Vehicles & Artillery:
    -Tanks: T-84 (main battle tank), M-84 (older tank, mainly in storage)
    -IFVs: Kentaurus IFV
    -APC: Leonidas 2 APC
    -Artillery: PLZ-05, Nora B-52, M84 NORA, L118, E56 120mm, E44-E 81mm, M-63 Plamen, M-77 Oganj
    -Reconnaissance vehicle: VBL
    -Utility: Some Yugo, Greek and Czech trucks and jeeps, see my auto industry for the military models of the civilian vehicles
    -Multi-purpose: Tatrapan (unchanged)
    -Air-defence: S-300

    Equipment of the Imperial Pelasgian Air Force:
    -Fighter jets: Chengdu J-10, Shenyang J-11
    -Fighter-bombers: Xi'an JH-7
    -Trainer/light attack: Utva Lasta
    -Special/heavy aircraft: E-8 Joint STARS (bought from Eiffelland), KC-10 Extender (bought from Eiffelland), Xian H-6, CN 235, Hawker Nimrod (perhaps cooperation with the Thaumatics? @Beautancus @Engellex), Lockheed C-5 Galaxy (bought from Eiffelland), Transall C-160
    -Helictopers: Eurocopter Panther, Eurocopter Cougar, Chinook (license built from Eiffelland), Sea Stallion, Eurocopter Tiger, PZL SW-4
    -AA systems: S-300, Tor MS, Aris AAMS

    Equipment of the Imperial Pelasgian Navy:
    -Ship & boat classes unchanged
    -Fighters: F/A-18 Hornet (license-built from Eiffelland), Chengdu J-10, Shenyang J-11
    -Heavy aircraft: Hawker Nimrod (see Air Force), C-27J Spartan, CASA/IPTN CN-235, Eurocopter Panther, Sea Knight
    -Missiles: AGM 86, Tomahawk, Exocet, Harpoon, RIM 116, Seawolf, RIM 66 S, RIM 67 S, AGM 78, APS
    -Perhaps: BrahMos (in joint development)
     

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