Poll: Map Overhaul

[Thaumantica]

Hey guys,

Our current mods and admins including myself agree with some players who are open to a map overhaul to consolidate the globe in order to cut down on some of the great dead zones and increase activity by proximity.

What exactly would that look like? Well I think that we first need to gauge the interest or approval by the existing community, and give players a chance to explain what features they want or do not. Perhaps most importantly: we need to give players who do not want their plots to remain unchanged or mostly unchanged, and to have a voice in any changes we may have.

To start there will be a poll simply asking if folks want any map overhaul at all. If you vote yes I ask that you describe what you think would improve the map, if you have an opinion on that. If you vote no then please also describe why that is. There is also a maybe option, and that's just for players who would say yes under certain conditions.

 

[Thaumantica]

I am voting yes. There should be an emphasis on redesigning the European Mainland to be larger and for the Scania and Himyar regions to either attach to or be shifted so they are closer. I also think we may want to consider a less Earth-mirrored world and instead tailor the map to our needs: mostly Euro and Near Eastern RPs with some minority of new world, far east, and african/arab nations. By no means do I want to cut out all of the East or the New World or Himyar, but I think their vastness to mirror our real world takes away from the primary interest of this RP board which is: Europe, it's Europe Game descended from ns-europe.

 

[Ivernia]

While Eurodisney should be by far the most dominant and largest part of the map maybe we should have bits along the edges, like having our ''middle east-far east'' region in the bottom left? A good mapmaker could put a picture to my words - basically allowing nations like Sikandara to stay on the map but much closer to eurodisney than normal.

This would help Sikandara as at the moment it very much on it's own. I know Ovi is there now but that is a very recent change to Belmont's previous isolation to the point he second nation'd in eurodisney.

 

[Touzen]

I think the map should just be Eurodisney and friends and nations like Sikandara can be handled as offmap boxes that are assumed to have a connection by sea or whatever to the main play area. But the focus should be on Eurodisney. As in: the world outside our continent exists, but we simply do not model it in detail.

 

[Hanseatic Republics]

While Eurodisney should be by far the most dominant and largest part of the map maybe we should have bits along the edges, like having our ''middle east-far east'' region in the bottom left? A good mapmaker could put a picture to my words - basically allowing nations like Sikandara to stay on the map but much closer to eurodisney than normal.

This would help Sikandara as at the moment it very much on it's own. I know Ovi is there now but that is a very recent change to Belmont's previous isolation to the point he second nation'd in eurodisney.

I agree.

I think the map should just be Eurodisney and friends and nations like Sikandara can be handled as offmap boxes that are assumed to have a connection by sea or whatever to the main play area. But the focus should be on Eurodisney. As in: the world outside our continent exists, but we simply do not model it in detail.

I agree with this as well, so long as the off map boxes are big enough to have 2-5 moderate to small sized nations in them, and not just one big nation in a box.

 

[Josepania]

While Eurodisney should be by far the most dominant and largest part of the map maybe we should have bits along the edges, like having our ''middle east-far east'' region in the bottom left? A good mapmaker could put a picture to my words - basically allowing nations like Sikandara to stay on the map but much closer to eurodisney than normal.

This would help Sikandara as at the moment it very much on it's own. I know Ovi is there now but that is a very recent change to Belmont's previous isolation to the point he second nation'd in eurodisney.

I agree with this over the idea of separate map boxes to accomodate nations like Camden, Sikandara, Media and Bangala. Sure, that is easier, but I don't feel it would look as good overall, and promote too much isolation in those areas despite the intentions.

An alternative which I know remains unpopular but I would like to express regardless is looking to the Classic map for inspiration. Say what you will about its appearance (which I disagree with but that's not the point), it worked, and it worked for a very, very long time. Perhaps the longest yet when you don't take into account major updates to its overall appearance.

Such an alternative should, I feel, be considered if we cannot make a suggestion like Padraig's work.

 

[North Uberland]

I'm new but this map overhaul idea sounds good, hmm

 

[Caelia]

I agree that the map is too large relative to the number of active players, but I am agnostic about how this should be solved.

I vote maybe.

 

[Oneida]

I voted yes because I believe there are multiple things wrong with our current map.

1) Principally, a massive portion of it is either inactive or unclaimed, making it barren. The colonies were a good idea, but they presented their own problems and did not enable every to utilize it (ie nations that aren't colonizers).

2) Nations are too far away. I understand in the real world nations interact and they're far apart, but it's different here. Very few nations have extreme power projection capabilities. I feel that we are too far apart and that closes some meaningful RP. For example, Auraria and Sikandara should RP together, but the distance means that we're kind of limited to a pissing match. No nation could sustain armed conflict with one another and there isn't much strategic value in fighting a war.

3) There's no geographically strategic areas. Our map lacks any Suez/Panama Canals, Hawaii, the southern tips of Africa or Argentina, etc. There's very little reason to be interested in any territory. It used to be the long sea, but activity has died out there due to the above mentioned problem of inactive players. However, even if the long sea was active, not everyone gives a shit.

So, with a group identification of three problems, I'm gonna throw out my idea on a possible solution.

I think we should consolidate the map into one or two super continents, think Westeros and Essos in Game of Thrones. Here are my reasons.

1) This is just a personal thing, but the idea of having an off-map world makes me uncomfortable. It seems strange to me that there are entire areas of the planet we know about, but never ever interact with. Even more so because one of the points of doing this is to eliminate large inactive/unclaimed areas.

2) A planet of two super continents means we don't need to compromise on anything. We can enlarge the areas we need to, shrink and/or eliminate the areas we don't. One continent can be made up of the New World/Eurodisney countries and the other can be virtually everyone else (again, Game of Thrones-esque). We can have every possible climate, terrain, and culture.

3) Designing these two new super continents gives us endless opportunities. The main idea I have is creating strategic waterways that you want to control or have a presence in. Basically, maintaing the long sea but forcing every country to be obligated to have a stake in who controls it. This means a few nations would be in strategic locations to control the trends of international trade. Since it's international trade, EVERY nation is invested in the power balances between this nations. If you put two nations that hate each other in the areas that control the trade routes, boom you have an instant international conflict to fuel RP.

4) This is more optional and not essential (in my mind). We could designate certain areas as areas that have XYZ. Oil, farmland, coal, desert, tundra, etc. Basically, we can design terrain and geography. With two supercontinents this is a lot less daunting of a task than the current map. When nations select their plots, they can do so having an idea of what resources their nations have in abundance and what they lack.

This creates a system where trade is even more important. Not everyone can say "I have a fuckton of XYZ," when the need arises. We've already established that this map has an emphasis on conflicts over trade routes. If we have nations that absolutely need to trade in order to get the resources they need, that's all the more incentive for people to be involved with any nation they can.

The reason I don't see this as essential is because it'd be complicated to do.

Ultimately, doing it this way puts a huge emphasis on international conflict/cooperation, brings us closer together, and doesn't sacrifice on the realistic virtue of a map.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Here's a basic map of what I think the two supercontinents should resemble. Ignore the geography, I'm not saying we go that far. This is just an idea of the shape being thrown around in my head.

You must be registered for see links

 

[Josepania]

I agree that the map is too large relative to the number of active players, but I am agnostic about how this should be solved.

I vote maybe.

What do you think of the suggestions so far?

 

[Pelasgia]

I really like the ideas of Auraria. I do not like cutting boxes out as it limits our world and seperates us so it makes RP less likely between our nations. I do like the idea of a global map but we could use more proximity and strategic areas, again as Auraria recommended. The three continents seem to be problematic mainly because one is not used due to the lack of interest for our Africa-esque continent.

Moreover the big chunk of land posessed but not used by inactives or under-actives is a problem, because players might not feel well about taking another's land even if it is unused and the players themselves might be worked to death if they try to actually use that much land. Two big continents could really be helpful, or perhaps retaining the 3 continents but giving the Africa-like one a very strategic position to give people incentive to use it, like big and important spots.

I think we should bring the "Asian" lands closer to the Afro-Euro core and make it more strategic to give players incentive to be on there. I volunteer to be on our less used areas to give them more life. Finally we could shorten our "Atlantic" and "Pacific" or add more islands in them so there can be meaningful RP between the nations there and in the rest of the world.

When I first came I read some articles on tension between Sylvania and Vithrais, which I understand are US and UK equivalents (?), but the distance put it to death quickly. I would really like to see a cross ocean tension between major world players, like Sylvania and Vithrais, Auraria and Sikandara and any others that I miss because I am not acquanted with this world's power balance. Perhaps these conflicts can drag along the smaller nations, but a great map overhaul is needed to achieve that. In short we should keep a world map but we can shorten the distance, cut unused space, shorten oceans and give them islands and give incentives to go on "taboo" regions. And if we do not have space for new players we can always just stretch it again or remove the numerous inactives.

 

[Holy Frankish Empire]

So far I like what I am seeing in the way of suggestions.

 

[Thaumantica]

If you're in that maybe camp be sure to say what your conditions are for yes or no, I don't want some overnight change to drive any of you away.

 

[Saaremaa]

I voted yes and I support the ideas of given by Jurzy. Though I say that on one continent there should be the Westerners (French, German, English, American and scandinavian nations) and on the other should be the Easterners (Eastern Europeans, Middle Eastern, Asian +African nations). But we should also create a bigger series of strategic places like maybe even have an inland sea in one of the continents that is linked through a Bosporus-like strait and so on. Also, i would add on each spot, under the code (004, 005, 006 things), the dominant culture (not particular, but say, german, french, middle eastern, african, east asian and so on) and I would also add percentages for the landscape, something like (25% mountains, 50% savanna, 25% desert) and also add some important resources like (oil and gas etc.).

 

[Hanseatic Republics]

It's worth noting I'm a big fan of large lakes, or bodies of water with many nations having a vested interest in them. I remember the Great Sea used to be that way back in classic.

 

[Josepania]

I feel that we should have a step-by-step process in overhauling the map, starting off simply and based off what we have, and growing more complicated and original if the previous steps do not meet overwhelming approval by the forum.

The first step should be focused on an alteration of the current map. Alterations would be primarily sinking huge tracts of land in Boreas, Himyar and Toyou, and bringing the remaining active nations and some surrounding territory like Camden, Bangala and Sikandara closer to Eurodisney, which needs to be the main focus of the entire map. Care should be taken in preserving the shape and size of the mapspots of these countries if they so wish it, such as Sikandara. The result may end up being a Classic-esque map that will be much smaller but, as a consequence, will also drastically reduce distances between our current nations, create more strategic points (such as straits or peninsulas etc.) that can be potentially squabbled over, and keep as much continuity as possible with the state of things as they stand RP-wise.

Only after we make an effort towards this, if it does not garner enough approval or at minimum acceptance, do I feel we should take the second step and explore Jurzy's proposal to create a Game of Thrones-esque dual continental system. This is because, although Jurzy's idea is good and addresses many of the issues of the current map, it requires a much more drastic overhaul in geography that may end up distinctly altering current continuity in RP, and I believe that continuity must be a priority at this time. This is not necessarily a reboot at this present time, and should only become one if the other options aren't acceptable.

And if Jurzy's implemented ideas still do not garner enough approval, we can move on to a third step and explore other options, knowing why steps one and two failed to begin with.

This process, I feel, would satisfy an overwhelming majority of the people here, especially those who have voted for "Maybe" in the polls.

 

[Saaremaa]

I don't believe that if we would use the dual continents option we would destroy the continuity, as in general, just the pixels from the map change, not the characters that did the roleplays.

 

[Josepania]

I don't believe that if we would use the dual continents option we would destroy the continuity, as in general, just the pixels from the map change, not the characters that did the roleplays.

It's not a guarantee, I don't argue that. I believe that there's less of a risk of that occuring if we go with alterations first, and I feel it also provides more chance for players to keep their spots as they are, in shape if not also location.

 

[Oneida]

I feel that we should have a step-by-step process in overhauling the map, starting off simply and based off what we have, and growing more complicated and original if the previous steps do not meet overwhelming approval by the forum.

The first step should be focused on an alteration of the current map. Alterations would be primarily sinking huge tracts of land in Boreas, Himyar and Toyou, and bringing the remaining active nations and some surrounding territory like Camden, Bangala and Sikandara closer to Eurodisney, which needs to be the main focus of the entire map. Care should be taken in preserving the shape and size of the mapspots of these countries if they so wish it, such as Sikandara. The result may end up being a Classic-esque map that will be much smaller but, as a consequence, will also drastically reduce distances between our current nations, create more strategic points (such as straits or peninsulas etc.) that can be potentially squabbled over, and keep as much continuity as possible with the state of things as they stand RP-wise.

Only after we make an effort towards this, if it does not garner enough approval or at minimum acceptance, do I feel we should take the second step and explore Jurzy's proposal to create a Game of Thrones-esque dual continental system. This is because, although Jurzy's idea is good and addresses many of the issues of the current map, it requires a much more drastic overhaul in geography that may end up distinctly altering current continuity in RP, and I believe that continuity must be a priority at this time. This is not necessarily a reboot at this present time, and should only become one if the other options aren't acceptable.

And if Jurzy's implemented ideas still do not garner enough approval, we can move on to a third step and explore other options, knowing why steps one and two failed to begin with.

This process, I feel, would satisfy an overwhelming majority of the people here, especially those who have voted for "Maybe" in the polls.

Your idea on taking things slow and being open to attempting small alterations as opposed to one drastic one is definitely the best way of going about this, no question. You suggest making alterations and then seeing if they prove effective. If the forum decides that they haven’t, then we consider a more drastic option. I am of the opinion thatwe have already been doing your idea for the better part of the last year now. We’ve made continuous slight alterations with the goals of consolidation and generating RP. Himyar, Boreas, and Toyou remain the problem areas, even after our continuous alterations. My ideas work in with your plan. I would say we’re at phase two in that the alterations were not effective as we are still having the debate. With that being said, it's time for the drastic option.

So I would argue that we’ve done what you suggested. We (You and I) may just disagree on where we are along the process you’ve rightfully suggested we take.

 

[Josepania]

Your idea on taking things slow and being open to attempting small alterations as opposed to one drastic one is definitely the best way of going about this, no question. You suggest making alterations and then seeing if they prove effective. If the forum decides that they haven’t, then we consider a more drastic option. I am of the opinion thatwe have already been doing your idea for the better part of the last year now. We’ve made continuous slight alterations with the goals of consolidation and generating RP. Himyar, Boreas, and Toyou remain the problem areas, even after our continuous alterations. My ideas work in with your plan. I would say we’re at phase two in that the alterations were not effective as we are still having the debate. With that being said, it's time for the drastic option.

So I would argue that we’ve done what you suggested. We (You and I) may just disagree on where we are along the process you’ve rightfully suggested we take.

We do indeed. Of course, if a majority of the base is in favor of your idea of overhaul before one final drastic alteration, I will be willing to go along with it. For now, though, I maintain my argument that, before we go dual continent, we should try single continent with outlying remnants of Himyar, Toyou and Boreas. That is itself a drastic option, though it's just a bit less drastic than a complete overhaul of geography.