State of the World Economy (constant discussion - NOT for nat'l economic updates)

Discussion in 'Worldbuilding & Wiki' started by Socialist World Republic, Feb 25, 2010.

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  1. Justosia

    Justosia Well-Known Member

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    Not really. Says the ICer tho. Like I said I'm ok with the label Corporatist. I'm not in that habit of repeating myself. I just think that definition needs to be tweaked some.
     
  2. Jyskerige-Østveg

    Jyskerige-Østveg Well-Known Member

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    Eh, inherently classifying anything tends to leave out specifics.

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  3. Natal

    Natal Well-Known Member

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    Ok, next the general issues with each. Those are just issues that come out from the general way people RPed, so if you want drama, just wait for the next post, in which I will try to say what all of this should mean for one's economy. Let the drama unfold then. As for Justosia's category, I will actually say that I did a favour to you for giving you a more corporatist and state capitalist one, rather than a liberal one, but that will be in a future post in which I will say why it's actually better for you.

    • Post-Delegationist Economies:
      • Deregulated inside the Anti-State (think of it as the trade inside the European Union);
      • Big tariffs for imports from non-Anti-State countries, with some exceptions in strategic resources such as oil;
      • Pohjanmaa is most probably seen as part of the Anti-State economically, so it trades freely with the A-S countries;
      • It's an on demand economy, so probably for the likes of cars and other more valuable products you won't see them already produced, but you would order than and they are made on demand, so I would imagine shelves aren't as full as in today's liberal economies, nor is there as much waste or inequalities;
    • Rentier Economies:
      • dependent on trade, as their main lifeline is the export of raw materials;
      • very vulnerable to world stability;
      • Can see recessions one quarter and then big booms the next;
      • Usually open to external investment;
    • Fully Planned Economies:
      • Stagnant in the general sense, very hard to adapt and to respond to the realities of economical needs;
      • Harder to be affected to passing problems like short term crises, like the rentier economies;
      • Still dependent on hard currency brought into the country through trade;
    • State Capitalism:
      • All in our world started as fully planned economies but liberalised;
      • Open to foreign investment but not fully dependent on it;
      • Still needs foreign hard currency;
      • More easily adaptable to the needs of the market, that the planned economies, but slower to do it than liberal ones;
    • Liberal Economies:
      • Dependent on stability; Not as much as the Rentier economies, but much more than state capitalists;
      • Open usually to foreign investment;
      • Can be divided in two categories the neo-liberals and market liberals;
      • State usually just provide an environment for companies to work and co-exist;
      • very dependent on the supply and demand paradigm;
    • Mercantile Economies:
      • A bit hard to define, as they are very syncretic;
      • A meeting place for neo-liberal and libertarian policies with corporatocracy and more protectionist corporations;
      • Dominated by huge corporations such as the Engellexic Thaumantic Company, the Caledonian Himyari Company or the Natalian Federal Investment Corporation;
      • While officially very liberal, they are still less vulnerable than liberal economies as many of the corporations are simply too big to fail;
    • Corporatist Economies:
      • Very similar to state capitalism;
      • Usually bands together certain types of producers into corporations;
      • Supports class unity rather than struggle;
      • Typically associated to 3rd position and right wing regimes;
      • A bit more liberal usually than the state capitalists;
    • Military Administration:
      • Usually brought on by post-war societal collapse or less commonly seen in a stratocratic society (not seen in the current scenario);
      • Administered by a foreign military, copying the system of the occupying country;
      • Will relieve power back into civilian hands, usually to a puppet regime copying the economic system of the original state;
      • Usually old companies and corporations are collapsing and considering that we are mainly seeing it as communist countries taking over, we might see nationalisations and colectivisations;
    • Feudal Economies:
      • I should add colonial economies here too;
      • Very low social mobility and extremely stratified;
      • Not that much industrialised, as it still uses very cheap labour;
      • Usually dominated by hereditary landowners so foreign investors have a hard time in a very nepotistic environment;
     
  4. Vaquero Free State

    Vaquero Free State Active Member

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    okay so The Vaquero Free State would be corporatist, which makes sense, although due to laziness on my part and not knowing much about economics.
     
  5. Jyskerige-Østveg

    Jyskerige-Østveg Well-Known Member

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    I worry that this turns the economics into a game in which there are pluses and minuses and everything is equal. Divisions in wealth and growth should be quite evident between the various categories, but on top of that individual national policies can even make growth and wealth divides differ even within one of those catagories.

    I like the work you are doing, but hopefully everyone understands there are caveats and additionally acknowledge that some of these systems will not produce anything near modern first world lifestyles. I’m not sure if that warning is necessary though, because you’ve seemed to indicate your next post will produce drama!
     
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  6. Justosia

    Justosia Well-Known Member

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    Again, cool with Corporatist. I get it bro I do. I just took issue with the "fascist" bit. Justosia's biggest CEOs have pretty free reign. Dr One was a state emergency. The US has literally done it before lol.
     
  7. Natal

    Natal Well-Known Member

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    Ok, time for those pesky problems that keep RP alive, but at the same time don't leave us having those nice 1st world economies that run so smoothly by themselves giving us plentiful wealth as if a factbook post is is a touch of Midas, lol. I will take the regions apart and talk about issues that have risen in RP and should affect people's economies. Yes, this is mostly the drama list, as I am expecting people to be like but muh economic boom. Again, it's a discussion if someone has better interpretations to the events and how the economy should react, I welcome their input.

    • Westernesse
      • Major Problem: Beautancus stopped recognising the administration of president Snyder in Sylvania. I know that in Zeke's internal character RP is has been mentioned that the border is in many places unmanned, but I think that the lack of recognition from Beautancus has effectively cut short this avenue of trade between the two major Westernesse nations and this should have a huge impact;
        • It could be interesting to see if trade can still be done easily through 3rd party countries like Seneca or the West Engell Republic, but either way, I would imagine that this would shake up the balance and increase prices for goods in Sylvania and Beautancus. I do imagine that some machine tools and steel based products in Beautancus would become more expensive, while the same can be said of food stuffs from the south coming into Sylvania.
      • Minor Problems: The Intergralists have taken over in the Vaquero Free State. To my shame I did not follow their economic policy but a corporatisation of the economy would probably push away foreign investors, while boosting the local ones. Mazidia has it's own problems, but with Vextra not RPing it, I don't think I should delve into it, but it should be worthy mentioning that it might raise the prices of natural rubber especially (that being the first thing I imagine Mazidia would produce with its jungles that affects other players);
    • Gallo-Germania
      • Major Problem: The disruption of the Long Sea trade with the whole Auro-Pohjaan crisis, mixed with the previous foiled terrorist attack on the port of Tauritania and the sinking of the Hyacinthe, should be a huge problem for everyone, for unless transport companies want to take a detour going through the Indala Sea from the Thaumantic to the Implarian, it literally cuts off their only direct route. Before saying that it not that a big deal, let us not forget what a big quantity of goods can be transported in a container ship and how much would it cost if one would be lost, so I do imagine everyone is very careful about such things. Even if things might calm down soon and it should return to normal in the next month, I do imagine that the whole world might have been affected and global prices would have gone up, maybe even triggering some panic driven shopping sprees. I think that thanks to the Long Sea crisis, the stocks might have gone crazy with all the uncertainty, making growth extremely hard or impossible for nearly everyone, but especially for the nations along the shores of the western parts of the Long Sea, who depend on this trade route. In time, if the western straits between Elamra and Auraria would be seen by too many as impossible to cross, should a war escalate, I think there would be a new shipping route that would go around Western Himyar and reenter the Long/Hamar Sea from the Indala Sea through the Northcott Channel and the Wadjet Sea. It would bring an increase in the prices as the new route would be longer, but it would probably still be possible to reach the majority of the Long Sea ports.
      • Minor Problems: Gallo-Germania was the place where 2 wars were fought, a country went bankrupt and a major Great Power collapsed. First, I do imagine that there still is a refugee problem in Occitania and Polesia, with many trying to either cross the border from West to East or to Friuli, in Occitania or from Polesia, across the lake to Bergenheim and Eiffelland, even if Kadikistani and SRN authorities would be trying to keep the border tightly locked, there would still be quite the population that was displaced and would need some time to fully return to being 100% productive. Then there's Bourgogne, which has collapsed and is being succeeded by Neustria and by a rump Bourgogne. Considering that it was the main power of Gallia, before the rise of SRN and the summoning of Auraria into the region, this should make some problems, and disrupt trade that even if the disolution it's let's say, peaceful, there still is a complete change is laws and regulations that need to be taken into consideration that would push the region into recession. And finally the last two, the sick men of Germania, Crotobaltislavonia and Ostmark, one being the sight of quite intense political violence and the other of bankruptcy. Currently, it seems that CBS has been stabilised but other than Kadikistani aid to develop the country (the Moravscik Plan), I don't think there are others rushing to aid, especially as the country is socialistic and its economy controlled. Ostmark, while not being the scene of potential civil wars and even a part of the 7 day war, it had its own protests that brought Grasser in power. While its more third position than socialist, I would imagine that it would have been included in the Moravscik Plan too and thus Kadikistan would have aided in its development. While the two may boast that they are tackling unemployment, they would probably have very low productivity.
        • I do imagine that the liberal economies of the Long Sea, the likes of Eiffelland, Lars, Friuli, Auraria, Nicosia would have probably taken a hit by the panic following the Aurarian sinking of the Espoo and that some measures of stabilising the markets should be taken, rather than ignored.
    • Western Himyar and Justosia:
      • Pelasgia: Probably the biggest economy in Himyar surely the biggest one in the southern coasts of the Long and Hamar Seas. Yet, it has its own huge problems. First, it was a stagnant economy from the beginning, kept alive by the major oil exports. The markets might have been happy that the government decided not to honour the Trier Accord alliance and kept itself neutral as it continued to export goods both to Trier and its allies and Ivar and its allies, but problems soon started, as the Empire has a civil war that brought down the old order and put the nationalists in power, changing the Southern Tiburan Empire into the Pelasgian one. Now, Pelasgia is nearly one party state with a system similar to a stratocracy and this should be problematic for many foreign investors, as it shook their trust in the state, especially as tensions continued and violence can be seen as erupting at any time. I do imagine that while still many are importing oil from the Empire, many of its clients are uneasy and are slowly looking for other, more stable suppliers.
      • ETCAS: Ex-Alkez, old Borovangerian (is that a word?) colony, conquered by Engellex. As it is predominantly desert, I think it had a small population but it still started a wave of displacement and refugees. Considering that its been taken over by the Engellexic Thaumantic Company and it fully monopolises the market, I imagine it has a colonial style economy with the ETC and Engells administrating it while many natives work and have very low productivity. Probably 99% of the population impoverished and 1% extremely rich. Usually big inequality is a think in Engell countries, but because of the war, ETCAS might have taken it all up to the next stage, breaking all records.
      • Justosia: Here it will get funny lol. Justosia should be a bit in the gutter, as the administration pushed all the resources into a series of extremely expensive projects like the Defence Readiness One that created 3 fleets (3 carriers, 30 frigates, I forgot how many subs) and around 200 planes or so I think, plus building in parallel 5 different light rail systems and now with the crisis in the Long Sea, the fleet tries its best to escort important freighters flying the Justosian flag. This all costs. A lot. A huge lot, especially when taking into account how big the maintenance cost for 3 carriers and 30 frigates really is. This makes the defence budget to be extremely bloated. At the same time, to put all this plan up, taxes were risen (even though they were reduced later, and they are being increased again now) and for some time, some of the industry has been nationalised, only to be privatised later. I won't talk about how things should have been or if its realistic or not, but I will talk about consequences. I think that foreign investors would steer clear of Justosia as they have seen that there can be random tax increases and nationalisations. I do think that the first wave of increases should have created a wave of emigration for the rich who would be the most taxed (think of how Gerard Depardieu left for Belgium from France). The nationalisation and privatisation would be interesting to see how it was done. Did the state compensated the owners? Did it do it at market value, at just a symbolic value or just confiscated the means of production? When it privatised them back, did it sell the factories back to the original owners or new ones? Because this will change very much the way people reacted to it. In the worst case scenario, the state confiscated them and then sold them to others, thus making the country to be seen as bad as probably Kadikistan, Ostmark or CBS by international investors. In the best case scenario, the owners were forced to sell the companies to the state and they were bought back, but even so, this shows that the state is ready to juggle with their lives and they should be ready to steer away from it as fast as possible and as much as possible. I will leave space for interpretation, as I expect you and me to not be on the same page about this whole thing, but that is why I put you as a corporatist economy, that way much more stuff if owned by the state and even if you economy was shaken by the whole thing, the state might have saved it from completely collapsing, whereas if it was a neo-liberal one, the fate of Zimbabwe might have been seen as a similar one.
    • Eastern Himyar
      • Major Problems: The big countries of Eastern Himyar, Natal and Azraq are mostly rentier economies, depending on the export of raw resources, generally oil for Azraq and mining products for Natal, even if they have some manufacturing industry. Others, like the Dune Sea, Post Stanley and ETCOS have colonial economies. Cabaon and ETCOS are going through limited violence, while in Loago is an intensive civil war taking place.
        • Because of their dependence on the exports, I think the Natalian and Azraqi markets are very volatile, going sometimes through big booms one quarter, only to end up in recession in the next one and so on. The Long Sea crisis, while it might make problems for the exports going to Auraria, Nicosia and Western Occitania, I don't think it affects that much the ones going into the Retalian Sea and thus Eastern Occitania, Friuli, SRN, Bourgogne/Neustria, Lars, Eiffelland and even less the ones going to Westernesse, as they can go through the south of Himyar and the Indala Sea without any problems.
        • The victories of the LLC in Loago at the beginning of the year might have created a panic for the investors as they were fearing that it will start a domino effect, with the LLC taking power in Loago, the Movement for the Poor and Dispossessed in Azraq, RANU in Port Stanley and the Rhinos in Natal, this fear, while it calmed down during the summer, autumn and winter into 2019, it might have started again after the Mzuzu bombings and the Azraqi political crisis. So, for foreign investors, currently, Eastern Himyar is a bit of a no go, or if you are brave enough, you might hit the jackpot or lose everything.
        • That is why, investment is pushed through the welfare and state funds of the two countries, with both buying shares into the CHC and thus taking a share of the Loagan Economy and the Natalian FIC (Federal Investment Corporation) entering the pretty dangerous Loagan and Cabaonian markets. The difference between them and 'civilian' investors being the fact that they can lobby for the state to keep the soldiers there and defend their investments and interests, so until things calm down and the FIC is investing in Cabaon or Loago, the Natalian Defence Force would be stationed there for probably a long time.
        • ETCOS might be very similar to ETCAS, the difference being given that it was bought from Ivernia, as it is the ex-Ivernish Himyari Commonwealth and rather than having an open fight, there is only low intensity fight for independence led by a group called PoBIS (I literally forgot what it means, something with Bible in it). As for the Dune Sea, being so remote, filled with a rough desert and extremely low in population too and far away from the Dune Sea, I think it is trade dependent on the Natal for food stuff and other important elements, while I thing that the FIC might be present there too with investments in the mining sector.
    For the continents that I haven't talked about, like Toyou, Scania, Thaumantica and the northern part of Germania, I'd say its either because they weren't active enough for me to see what and how is happening or, in northern Germania, they have been stable enough and geographically situated in such a way that I don't think the Long Sea Crisis affects them very much. There is a political scandal in Gunnland, but for a kingdom that lived for such a long time unchanged, I think many see it just as a tempest in a teapot and see life going on as normal there.
     
  8. Jyskerige-Østveg

    Jyskerige-Østveg Well-Known Member

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    A little disappointed the stable areas didn’t get much attention, but a very solid post. I feel that everything that is pretty true. The magnitude or impact of events are the only things that can be debated, but the fact these issues exist as you say, cannot be ignored.
     
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  9. Beautancus

    Beautancus Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I've only just read the very top section (concerning my bidnaz) and I'm already truly impressed, and perhaps even inspired with a few other avenues of more direct and immediately focused roleplay. Well done in that regard alone, now finishing the read.
    *EDIT* Finished, as and even more impressed. Great initiative and job.
     
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  10. Gunnland

    Gunnland FTR

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    Fantastic. I'll incorporate into RP. The NGG region will be more stable than SGG and looking forward to greater integration now that Karl Maria rules in Bourgogne as well, perhaps even picking up SGG market shares now that overseas trade is disrupted. I'll suggest their loss is our gain for now. But we've had some economic problems up north, too.

    Elben has a food shortage, I believe, which Gunnland was too dysfunctional to mitigate.
     
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  11. Engellex

    Engellex Moderator Staff Member

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    Just two things to consider :-

    ETCAS (as Al-Kez) was a source of oil for Gallia, and even though a temporary agreement was reached with Serenierre for supply, the peace treaty has not yet been signed.

    PoBIS (Purveyors of Biblical Insurrectionist Spirit) is an umbrella terrorist organization established from a organized criminal network centered on Jacturus, in ETCOS, and its biggest most corrupt industry, waste and recycling. It may or may not have been responsible for the attacks against refugees at the border, and beyond that there is very little violence in ETCOS, especially outside District Jacturus. Their deeds involve smuggling, trafficking, and corruption. Outside of ETCOS it is different, and PoBIS peaked on 30th December.
     
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  12. Eiffelland

    Eiffelland Well-Known Member

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    If I haven't abided by this before the end of the week, please remind me to do so.
     
  13. Eiffelland

    Eiffelland Well-Known Member

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    Oh, and of course, Natal, thank you for your work

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  14. Serenierre

    Serenierre Well-Known Member

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    For my sake, I just want to say that I have been roleplaying under the belief that refugee camps are still a thing. While construction and urban rehabilitation is still happening but most of the northern civilians in West Occitania were displaced and are living in tent cities monitored by Revolutionary Guards - the paramilitary force of the Communist Party of Serenierre.
     

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