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the Retalian Question

Serenierre

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Regarding, the creation of an Eiffelland/Retalia super-state, I believe it should be stated that I am fine with Eiffelland getting the Germanian mainlands of Retalia, however, the islands of the Retalian archipelago should be made available for a new player to claim. They are very strategically placed and could provide more interesting dynamics to the region and as such offer interesting opportunities to players to get involved in the Gallian region.

This is a purely OOC suggestion, the reduction of Retalian pixels would not hamper their IC ability or strengths.
 

Warre

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It would hamper all your rp in the region's goundation though.
 

Eiffelland

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The only problem is: Retalia RPed having 70 million inhabitants. If they would all live on the Germanian mainlands of Retalia, it would be very busy there :think: Impossibly busy I'm afraid. So we need to presume a smaller number of people. Then the Retalian armed forces would also have been smaller than we presumed in the most recent wars. Furthermore, then Retalia's economy would also have been smaller, because of which it would not have been able to invest in Trivodnia to such an extent that Kadikistan became angry about it. Apart from that, in the somewhat less recent past, Retalia ignited a diplomatic incident about the Retalian Sea because of those islands. Then that history is suddenly unexplainable as well. And finally, a weaker Retalia would not have been a reason for Serenierre to be on high alert for it.

So if Retalia looses its islands, a lot of the history up to now will become difficult to explain. How are we going to handle that?

By the way, I do realise that me indicating to keep the islands with Retalia sounds suspicious at the moment. I'm sorry for that.
 

Auraria

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I do think that a unification of Retalia and Eiffelland would create a fairly massive Gallo-Germanian Superstate that I do not believe would be beneficial to future RP. I do not think that Retalia's previously RPed size/strength/economy really needs to be given much consideration due to the fact that things have been retconned before and if Retlaia is nerfed it still provides Eiffelland with a significant boost in power.
 

Warre

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Let's also remember that 'numbers' don't matter squat for these things, any number of things could have stopped the war with Kadikistan, and t be perfectly honest it is the alliance system, not the strength of it, that stopped Kadikistan from going wholehog on Germania/Gallia, that and its agreement with Serenierre over spheres of influence.

I do think that some of the coastal control is necessary to stop the RP from being messed up, but given Occitania was going to join the Trier accord BEFORE Serenierre attacked it, it could be retconned into fulfilling some trier claim to the retalian sea.
 

Bergenheim

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I've been encouraged by Serenierre to express this, but personally I don't really want to cause any trouble or stir the pot at this point.

Still, if you want my opinion, I don't think Retalia should be absorbed at all, the whole country should be whiteplotted for the next player.

But I appreciate thats not how most of the board feels, so ignore me if thats appropriate.
 

Eiffelland

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If Retalia and Eiffelland become one country, it won't be able to use the boosted power until further notice, because both Engellex and Serenierre and the Rurikgrad Pact will watch it VERY closely for a long period of time. The only thing I can do for the coming years, is rebuilding the economy and convincing the people to not turn red or brown.
 

Bergenheim

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Its not about power, its about reducing the amount of space available for new players to play/contribute/become active in a very popular/hotly contested region of roleplay. I'd prefer if Retalia isn't going to be a thing anymore, it was made available for future users, if possible.
 

United Republics

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There are two concerns I have in regard to some objections, which need some thought, too.

Firstly, Retalia has had far more activity than Bourgogne, and the former occupies far less map space than the latter.

Secondly, there are at least three players on Gallia-Germania looking to create, or have created, second nations for Occidentia (or whatever it is called). I am not objecting to second nations, not at all, but it is something to think about, given the above arguments.
 

Eiffelland

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Well, Bourgogne showed a lot of activity in the 1950s scenario. He RPed the Peninsula Republic becoming independent, and her RPed the war in Milesia. After that, his activity reduced, that is true, but nevertheless. More in general, he has a very large and impressive RP record.

In any case, what do you suggest regarding Bourgogne? Reducing his map spot will have consequences to the history. He could not have attacked CBS if he would not have bordered it. He could historically not have had a colony in Hymiar if he would not have had a good access to the sea. I'm afraid that you can't do much there without disrupting recent history.
 

Warre

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People letting troops move through their borders is a thing. Good sea access? Man Ivernia had a huge colony despite being in the far north. It didn't stop me when Warre bordered Gunnland either, and Viruuma is also far north. So any snipet of coast at all what so ever allows the peninsular republic to exist, as does any other gallic colony.

Hell it makes history make way more sense when you consider Belmont has went on record saying Serenierre never has or will have colonies, yet it has all the benefits of them. Less coast and good ports Bourgogne has more of Bourgognes official trading eith its colonies and the like went through Serenierre, which makes Serenierre's assumed power and wealth make more sense than otherwise.
 

Eiffelland

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During Summer, Ivernia, Viruuma and you had free access to the sea. When Bourgogne is reduced to its eastern half, he has to cross a very narrow sea arm in-between two countries which will not always have been friendly to him.
 

Warre

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During Summer, Ivernia, Viruuma and you had free access to the sea. When Bourgogne is reduced to its eastern half, he has to cross a very narrow sea arm in-between two countries which will not always have been friendly to him.
Doesn't mean it is impossible, especially if a lot of Burgurdian Colonial,companies and charterd were really from Serens. A gallian is a gallian and all.
 

Varovia

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Given the subject and length of this sidebar discussion I've moved the comments concerning it to another thread. If it cannot be resolved in about a week or so I believe we should elevate it to a mod team decision, though said team is about as active as Retalia itself so it may be a long deliberation.
 

United Republics

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I'm not sure I understand your concerns, Engellex, or what your position on this even is. Could you elaborate, please? :)
I do not see any urgency in removing Retalia at this present moment, and before Retalia is removed there are at least three other nations (Gouw Marken; Bourgogne; Lassisse) who will be removed prior.

On Eiffelland absorbing Retalia, I am somewhat indifferent. I do not oppose it, but I would prefer to see it as an RPed storyline that would allow Retalia (the player) to assume control once more on his return. Whether Eiffelland should absorb all of Retalia, I am not sure.

But this shouldn't be an issue right now. There's no need to open space on Gallia-Germania, as far as I can see, in fact I can see that continent entering a low point (second nations).
 

Serenierre

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I personally believe that Bourgogne shouldn't be greened. That country is important for Gallia. Although, that plot size should maybe be reduced for purely OOC purposes to allow players a chance to come to Gallia, not necessarily to diminish any IC strength. If memory serves me correctly, the plot was increased twice, once to the north and once to the east, maybe reverse those expansions?. Just my two cents.

Although someone should run the idea by Fleur.
 

Eiffelland

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I would also be against completely greening Bourgogne. It is too important for the history. I am indifferent regarding reducing Bourgogne's map spot, but it should have access to the sea. And maybe sea access through that narrow sea strait is enough.

I already voiced my concerns on greening the islands of Retalia. 70 million people on continental Retalia will lead to overcrowding problems. Reducing the population together with taking the islands away will make the recent RPing impossible. Furthermore, the fact that the islands are Retalian soil is a cause of a certain historic animosity between Retalia and Serenierre.

For RPing Retalia in such a way that the player behind it can take it over again when he returns, my thoughts are the following. I have a dual monarchy à la Austria-Hungary in mind, but in such a way that it is not only Eiffelland that determines foreign politics. To get that on a row, Retalia will be split up in provinces, and those provinces will have the same rights and duties as the provinces of Eiffelland currently have. The parliament in Trier will be extended to 1000 members, to which all the inhabitants of Eiffelland and Retalia have voting rights. Officially, the Kingdom of Eiffelland and the Grand-Duchy of Retalia will continue to exist. In the former Eiffellandian provinces, the King is still King. In the former Retalian provinces, the King is Grand-Duke. This option has my preference.
Alternatively, I could place a 100-member parliament above the parliaments of Eiffelland and Retalia, and let that 100-member parliament form a government with an Archchancellor, a Minister of Foreign Affairs and a Minister of Defence. The disadvantage of that solution is, that that supercabinet will stand too far away from the people.
A third alternative could be to give the Retalian provinces the same status as Helgoland and Rügen currently have: Autonomous regions that completely govern themselves, except for foreign politics and defence, which is done by Trier. The disadvantage of that solution is, that only a minority of the people of Eiffelland-Retalia have decisive power over foreign politics and defence.
The fourth alternative will be that I RP Eiffelland and Retalia as the personal union it is already. Then both countries only share the Head of State. Then I have to roll back some things, but that is doable. Then Walther Grauholzer will return as Chancellor of Retalia. The only problem is, that I will have to write news posts for two countries instead of one, which is time-consuming.
 

Eiffelland

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I thought up a fifth alternative: Retalia will get the same status as Helgoland and Rügen currently have: That of an autonomous region that governs itself independently from Trier, except for foreign affairs, defence and education. Retalia keeps its own government (I will bring Walther Grauholzer back), and the government of Eiffelland is also the government of Eiffelland-Retalia. However, the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Minister of Defence need to be approved by the parliaments of Eiffelland, Retalia, Helgoland and Rügen before they can be appointed by the King/Grand-Duke. That will be the end to the tradition that the minister of foreign affairs is also the vice-chancellor and the most important minister of the second-largest political party in the coalition. When I do this, the player behind Retalia can indeed take his country back when he returns.
 

Eiffelland

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OK. I will go for the fifth alternative as formulated in post 19 of this thread.

One other thing. Retalia mentioned on his Wiki page that Retalia has left-hand traffic. I have the feeling that he overlooked that when he copypasted the Wikithing from somebody else, so I will RP Retalia as having right-hand traffic, like Eiffelland.
 
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