Map Guidelines and the Basic Colony or Territorial Expansion Process

[Furlanìe]

Such things as this conversation here probably wouldn't exist if the people with the problem would just talk to xen about their issues with the toyou rules

You really think this is the first time this comes up? It's a redundant problem, and every time nothing changes. There is no issue of problems being kept secret, the issues are always the same, and nothing ever changes. I bet, my friend, we will be having this exact same conversation again in a year or two.

In regards to solving problems with private conversations, I'm not in the old guard, but I've been here enough time to know that anything not made public creates problems, doesn't solve any

Also, the fact that you like fast and desicive central authority and decision-making is understandable, makes sense, but we are a community not a state nor a foundation, we know each other, and I don't think the majority of us likes the idea of being less important than others for the forum, if there is no community, there is no Europe. Democracy might not be a good idea, but is still better than any other in making all feel part of a common society.

 

[Vrijpoort]

Hi everyone. Wow, a lot of posts. Wouldn't it be great if these were all IC?

Anyway, I just wanted to chime in. In general, I'm opposed to blanket rules making RP more difficult in Touyou. I am glad that Xen has been RPing more. In fact, I was/am hoping to approach him to get a better idea of what his economy looks like so I can try to get more involved with economic RP in his country.

I only tried to RP once in Touyou (New Cathay) and at the time Xen was inactive so my little city state made the cut. But I think people are not giving Xen the benefit of the doubt. Xen is a human. He is a really nice guy who I've recently had the pleasure of meeting in Tokyo. If you have an issue with him or something on the forum, he will gladly take the time to discuss it with you. He is rational. He cares a lot about this forum and our community. If you really want to RP in Touyou, send him a PM with your ideas and thoughts and engage in a conversation with him. I'm sure some arrangement can be made and I doubt it would require bending over backwards.

Anyway, just my two guilders.

 

[RIPracem]

I have full confidence in xen/staff and the fact that the regulation is not a martial law imposed on us rebel users. This is demonstrated by his willingness to discuss and always find a meeting point.
I myself have doubts and find the current drafting of the regulation as "hostile" to the RP. Doubts that I expressed to xen in private and we had a constructive discussion.
-Etruria
-Lars

 

[The Federation]

Also, the fact that you like fast and desicive central authority and decision-making is understandable, makes sense, but we are a community not a state nor a foundation, we know each other, and I don't think the majority of us likes the idea of being less important than others for the forum, if there is no community, there is no Europe. Democracy might not be a good idea, but is still better than any other in making all feel part of a common society.

Take a moment and go back through the OOC threads and you will realize that this community is not really capable of being democratic about this stuff. There a a few instances where that is wrong, I could use the 50's scenario change over to prove you right, but actually if you go and look into that, it really was the staff pushing it through regardless of opinion and it happened to be the best scenario in recent memory on this forum. Perhaps a compromise would be for staff to present options and vote on it and go from there, with limited discussion. Otherwise I think this is completely fine.

You really think this is the first time this comes up? It's a redundant problem, and every time nothing changes. There is no issue of problems being kept secret, the issues are always the same, and nothing ever changes. I bet, my friend, we will be having this exact same conversation again in a year or two.

No I don't think this is the first time thank you very much. And yes I think there are problems with people harboring hidden feelings they are too afraid of getting off their chest or it doesnt do anything for them because they want to act the eternal victim. This whole conversation being started by Pelasgia who has a history of pointless OOC conflict and arguement with Xen about literally anything he can think of is a big reason of why I think this whole thing is in bad faith. If it had been Taley or Saaya who had brought it up first I would be more inclined to think there is an earnest and reasonable reason as to why this discussion is happening. And really i have to ask if Taley or Saaya actually made the effort to discuss anything with him in the first place and we know that Saaya didn't because he just said he didn't even bother. So yea I think the reasons this whole thing is taking place in this public way is because people don't want to do the work it takes to have a discussion with the parties that would actually be involved.

 

[Remuria]

@Asteria
Indeed, back in the more Toyou-active days, this was the case. Ans you were one of the top quality players.

But time flies, that was already 2-3 years ago for the last active player besides Xen. You've all switched concepts since then and, as I understand, for most players this was before the ban was put into place.

Not arguing about anything, just saying that right now that blob of pixels is just a corner of the world sparks seldom if any interest from the rest of the playerbase.

Whether this was something Xen wanted, or whether this is something he didn't want and it went against his initial ideas, I have no idea.

 

[Khemia]

If it had been Taley or Saaya who had brought it up first I would be more inclined to think there is an earnest and reasonable reason as to why this discussion is happening. And really i have to ask if Taley or Saaya actually made the effort to discuss anything with him in the first place and we know that Saaya didn't because he just said he didn't even bother. So yea I think the reasons this whole thing is taking place in this public way is because people don't want to do the work it takes to have a discussion with the parties that would actually be involved.

For the record, Xen actually can be worked with on this, and you can get ideas through. I was able to RP as Reikoku not that long ago, and though it fell through just before "the drama," it's still proof it can be done. I take the stricter "no" given to me last August as more of a response to my tendency to go inactive. I will say, I've been encouraged several times, even by Xen, to reconsider dropping Xinhai. I dropped Xinhai on purpose, though, and for RL reasons rather than forum-related ones.

This time around, I just wanted to get the ball rolling rather than have to negotiate concepts. As it is, I'm working elements of Japanese culture into Asteria under different names and am just as happy with it anyways.

 

[Jydsken-Østveg]

I want to say that I think discussion is good. I don’t think that I made any “new” rules though. A lot of these rules have existed for the last few years, although some are “newer”. Of course they’ve always been “un-written.”

It was expressed to me about a month ago that people were annoyed at how difficult it could be to understand how to apply for things and what was acceptable. So I published the un-written rules. I‘m glad that sparks discussion, but again these aren’t necessarily new in my mind. I think it’s possible to talk to people to make the rules easier, or more transparent. I also think that some rules can be re-phrased. If you have a better way to phrase something to get a similar point across by all means suggest so publicly. These aren’t in stone, I am willing to be very fluid with things so long as the spirit they invoke remains. — Remember, I wrote these quickly over time because they were requested. I’d much rather be RPing than writing all this and so I don’t find it very appreciative to just have them smashed upon.

As for finer details like various special rules, I feel that they exist for reasons. They did not arrive in a vacuum as some kind of power grab but instead because feelings were stepped on at some point in time and players were not very kind to each other. I think there is also history in those rules and to banish some of them puts long term history and building into doubt. Ultimately they protect intellectual property. Something we all care about to some degree. Someone like myself never cared that much, I’m always flexible with things people want to steal or adopt from my nations. Others find themselves annoyed and hurt when their time is wasted or their own national concepts are destroyed by other players. That‘s not to say we can’t be flexible about these rules, but I do think we have to ask ourselves that if we want to crash down some things but not others, we directly harm the social cohesion of the forum in a way that can only be solved by a reboot so everyone has everything starting from scratch with rules that apply uniformly from a zero point. —Ultimately a lot of these things exist to protect what has been written and I don’t mind expanding rules to protect that in future cases where it may be threatened.

So perhaps the real question we should ask... what do we value here more? What was written? Or what will be written? Certainly there is some place in between those options where most of us stand but I think this is a deeper question we need to consider rather than just the surface of a rule.

 

[Serenierre]

Are these rules presented as a draft for discussion or have they been promulgated?

 

[Thaumantica]

Are these rules presented as a draft for discussion or have they been promulgated?

It's a draft for discussion.

I want to discuss the Toyou issue some: Xen's arching insistence has been that our Asian region of Toyou was not inflicted with tropes of weak and unorganized governments against Western Empires. This insistence has created an interesting and still unexploited game dynamic in determining where merchants and empires might go to exploit if not Asia, and where the sweatshops of the world exist in the modern day to produce widgets and products.

Before starting this nation after Engellkind suicided: I had a desire to play a Russian nation. Although Kadikistan is not Russia, between Xen and Spelev they own the geography for the type of state I would have liked to try. I didn't even bother asking them, as maybe a lot of you are complaining internally as well: it's too difficult to ask. I then wanted to do a Southern U.S. nation, and ran into some issues there as well. I asked the players of this Westernesse region and hounded them for a result. Even as an admin I too run into issues with starting nations on the board and have to deal with negotiations and appealing players to consider my propositions with the map. When I am passionate about an issue on the board I try to be 'persistent + reasonable'.

I've never really wanted to play an Asian/Toyou nation for longer than a dream, so this hasn't been an issue I am passionate about. I think though pining towards more freedom in the region for creation is reasonable for those who are passionate about it. I think that references to previous successful Toyou nations bear the fruits of what is possible there: Vangala and Xinhai are two I think of often. However, the "hoops to jump through" and barriers to entry for a Toyou nation are intimidating - and I think historically it's been harrowing to consider your nation would have no neighbors other than Xen who could be inactive for a spell.

My point to this is that I think our narrative having the Anti-State and an imperially unmolested Asia/Toyou is a great thought experiment RP. It's not being fully exploited or experienced right now: and that's due to a lack of communication between prospective players/stake holders and the admin/primary stake holder in Toyou.

Also again: those of you who have isolated from us please reach out and explain your gripes here or privately. I see the Toyou issue as the primary thing in this thread and am targeting that.

 

[Jydsken-Østveg]

Are these rules presented as a draft for discussion or have they been promulgated?

They are open for discussion. They are also currently in use until administration tells me otherwise. As said before, these are the basic unwritten rules that existed prior. So nothing has changed. Things are just public now. The phrase Touyou Ban has been used on the discord for example for well over two years.

 

[Remuria]

@Ambrosia

Challenge inert perceptions, disrupt the established order.

Don't see why you couldn't make a Russian-speaking democratic USA in Westernesse. It's an open continent, and the trope that Russians were bad at colonising America is proper to Real Life, because Russians opted for Siberia.

In our little IC world, clearly the Slavians weren't really good at taking over Siberia, as half of it is under Touzen.

So maybe they could've gone over to Westernesse. And there done their black sea with milk and lemon parties. With samovars. And samogon. Yeah.

 

[Pelasgia]

They are open for discussion. They are also currently in use until administration tells me otherwise. As said before, these are the basic unwritten rules that existed prior. So nothing has changed. Things are just public now. The phrase Touyou Ban has been used on the discord for example for well over two years.

With all due respect, we need to stop citing the discord and any other private or off-forum discussion as a source of law for the forum. I have been on this forum since 2016, and have literally never heard of the Toyou Ban. Instead, I've seen multiple states in Toyou of various cultures and state types, and I've seen no discussion on them regarding Xen or Post-Delegationism. To say these rules have always been around and were just written down is a bit inaccurate in my opinion; this is your interpretation of our customary laws. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm saying it's an interpretation, not the positive law beyond all reproach.

To add to this, I never intended to make this a discussion on whether @Touzen should continue to RP or not, or to try to claim that this is some broad conspiracy. My point (though perhaps badly made) was that these things should be discussed in public, as we're doing right now, not promulgated. Since this was brought up, I believe that Xen should be allowed to RP if he wishes, though I do think some users above made a valid point in saying that an Admin simultaneously RPing as a self-proclaimed super power with IC ties to many other players (some of which are also moderators) would raise eyebrows. Excuse my insufferable lawyering here, but conflicts of interest must not only not exist, but must be seen not to exist. Why? Well, this brings me to Sylvania and Nichtstein's point about Xen owning the forum. He does, and we all thank him for it, but this is a question of fairness. Sure, Xen could theoretically ban all nations that have IC bad relations with Touzen (not saying that he ever would, this is just an extreme example), but that would kill players' perception of fairness in the community, and thus the forum would be deserted. Nobody wants to RP without fairness. I will not discuss this further to avoid drama, but I do want to note that as long as Xen RPs a major IC nation while also being admin, the optics will always be bad, and an effort should always be made to maintain good optics and confidence.

Moving on, I think we should have a more standard approach to RP across all regions, based on common underlying principles of generally accepted rules. For example:

1. New nations should respect the established history, character, and ethno-cultural composition of their prospective region, and should coordinate with current players to ensure that this requirement is met.
2. Colonies should also respect the above, and should be historically feasible and warranted.

Based on this two examples of rules, a claim for a colony in Toyou could be debated on its merits, and then the case on whether a "Toyou Ban" exists could be made, rather than us asserting ex nihilo that it does or that it does not. Just my five cents, I don't mean to attack or blame anyone, or to otherwise cause drama.

 

[Jydsken-Østveg]

With all due respect, we need to stop citing the discord and any other private or off-forum discussion as a source of law for the forum. I have been on this forum since 2016, and have literally never heard of the Toyou Ban. Instead, I've seen multiple states in Toyou of various cultures and state types, and I've seen no discussion on them regarding Xen or Post-Delegationism. To say these rules have always been around and were just written down is a bit inaccurate in my opinion; this is your interpretation of our customary laws. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm saying it's an interpretation, not the positive law beyond all reproach.

To add to this, I never intended to make this a discussion on whether @Touzen should continue to RP or not, or to try to claim that this is some broad conspiracy. My point (though perhaps badly made) was that these things should be discussed in public, as we're doing right now, not promulgated. Since this was brought up, I believe that Xen should be allowed to RP if he wishes, though I do think some users above made a valid point in saying that an Admin simultaneously RPing as a self-proclaimed super power with IC ties to many other players (some of which are also moderators) would raise eyebrows. Excuse my insufferable lawyering here, but conflicts of interest must not only not exist, but must be seen not to exist. Why? Well, this brings me to Sylvania and Nichtstein's point about Xen owning the forum. He does, and we all thank him for it, but this is a question of fairness. Sure, Xen could theoretically ban all nations that have IC bad relations with Touzen (not saying that he ever would, this is just an extreme example), but that would kill players' perception of fairness in the community, and thus the forum would be deserted. Nobody wants to RP without fairness. I will not discuss this further to avoid drama, but I do want to note that as long as Xen RPs a major IC nation while also being admin, the optics will always be bad, and an effort should always be made to maintain good optics and confidence.

Moving on, I think we should have a more standard approach to RP across all regions, based on common underlying principles of generally accepted rules. For example:

1. New nations should respect the established history, character, and ethno-cultural composition of their prospective region, and should coordinate with current players to ensure that this requirement is met.
2. Colonies should also respect the above, and should be historically feasible and warranted.

Based on this two examples of rules, a claim for a colony in Toyou could be debated on its merits, and then the case on whether a "Toyou Ban" exists could be made, rather than us asserting ex nihilo that it does or that it does not. Just my five cents, I don't mean to attack or blame anyone, or to otherwise cause drama.

With all due respect, all you’ve ever done is create drama. I am no saint and guilty of my own folly from time to time, but you stand guilty for any drama here. You come and go, over and over, and cannot from any position claim authority to know the pulse of all the players on the forum. You are one of the players that constantly issues libel against Xen. Each time you do, you personally attack my friend and I won’t stand for it. Stop your OOC bullying. His presence on the forum is as constant as yours and his RP is just as detailed and measured. Discontinue your endless attacks on PDism, or I can assure you I will make my opinion of your RP known endlessly as well. You always say you come in peace for a good discussion, but you never actually do.

It’s not my fault you cannot remember the Touyou Ban, it’s even been mentioned by the forum at least by myself at some point. I know it for sure.

I see nothing as unfair as you do. I just see the hard work of many people constantly spat on. I also see threats waged in accordance with player activity and presence. This was also done in September, and if anything seems like a different kind of unfairness. Don’t hold your activity hostage. If you don’t like something speak your mind without threats. If you want to leave then leave.

You’ve stated your opinion. I have listened and will think upon it. That I assure you. I will not judge your suggestion immediately and may respond later when other opinions are heard. You have told me in the past that you care about this forum and as a result passionately argue for it. That’s fine, but your arguments always come at a cost and always are thinly veiled attacks. There is an entire part of our community that tires of that.

...and don’t come here saying you don’t want drama. You’ve never done anything but.

 

[The Federation]

Since this was brought up, I believe that Xen should be allowed to RP if he wishes, though I do think some users above made a valid point in saying that an Admin simultaneously RPing as a self-proclaimed super power with IC ties to many other players (some of which are also moderators) would raise eyebrows.

This is ridiculous to say the least, name an instance where Xen has used his IC ties to players that are also mods to his advantage. However how many times have you "changed" your nation because you ended up in a political situation or any situation you've gotten yourself into and still kept your IC power. I honestly can't see how you can claim to not attempting to start drama and then say something so clearly inflammatory.

 

[Vrijpoort]

Everyone take a chill pill and maybe freeze this discussion for 24 hours?

 

[Thaumantica]

Sitting regional players all having the same ability to curate new entries into their region, everything else aside, is a reasonable map wide rule that would not call to consider whether someone is an admin, owner, or anything unique other than a sitting active nation player.

What I mean is: there would be no reason to call something a Toyou/Touzen rule if each continent region had that same ability to gate guard reasonably. I’ve always thought they did, but it was indeed unwritten - so maybe this would be one to keep on a multi region basis.

 

[Saxe-Friesken and Polaben]

Sitting regional players all having the same ability to curate new entries into their region, everything else aside, is a reasonable map wide rule that would not call to consider whether someone is an admin, owner, or anything unique other than a sitting active nation player.

What I mean is: there would be no reason to call something a Toyou/Touzen rule if each continent region had that same ability to gate guard reasonably. I’ve always thought they did, but it was indeed unwritten - so maybe this would be one to keep on a multi region basis.

Indeed yes, this has been spoken of many times. The hard part is figuring out how to implement it. If there are good ideas for it and that is desired, I think that is a fine addition.

 

[Pelasgia]

This is ridiculous to say the least, name an instance where Xen has used his IC ties to players that are also mods to his advantage.

I literally said that I am not claiming that Xen has used his ties to his advantage, but that people might think he would be in a position to do so. A perceived-potential conflict of interest and an actual conflict of interest are two entirely different things, as I said. How many times do I have to say what I am saying and what I am not saying for you to actually understand, Zeek?

However how many times have you "changed" your nation because you ended up in a political situation or any situation you've gotten yourself into and still kept your IC power.

Around 5. These have all been due to my changeritis and have never affected other players, at least as far as I can tell. I have offered to break up Pelasgia numerous times when changing concepts, and this has been refused by people numerous times. Heck, I've wanted to break up Pelasgia at least twice and have been talked out of it.

I honestly can't see how you can claim to not attempting to start drama and then say something so clearly inflammatory.

It's only inflammatory if you're looking to be inflamed.

With all due respect, all you’ve ever done is create drama.

So I haven't RPed at all in the forum. I've only ever created drama. Clearly.

You are one of the players that constantly issues libel against Xen. Each time you do, you personally attack my friend and I won’t stand for it.

Libel is a heavy word. I ask you to point to one instance of libel. Don't throw around words you don't know the meaning of. If I had said "Xen told you to make these rules and you did" that would be libel. Did I? No. You and Zeek are extrapolating things from my comments that I never meant and never said.

You can be friends with Xen or not, it's not my issue. I have never "attacked" your friend. You have attacked me multiple times on Discord, by contrast, including the very first time we met. See the difference?

Stop your OOC bullying.

I am not bullying anyone. If anything, I could accuse the DDI of IC bullying, but I don't.

His presence on the forum is as constant as yours and his RP is just as detailed and measured. Discontinue your endless attacks on PDism, or I can assure you I will make my opinion of your RP known endlessly as well. You always say you come in peace for a good discussion, but you never actually do.

I disagree on both points regarding RP and presence, though I fail to see what any of this has to do with forum rules. Your opinion of my RP is irrelevant, both to me and to this topic. Please remain on topic. I always do come for good discussion, Coro. Of the last great forum OOC fights, how many have I been a party to? Zero, to the best of my recollection. I always try to calm people down and remain neutral, as my attitude during the Beautancus debacle showed.

It’s not my fault you cannot remember the Touyou Ban, it’s even been mentioned by the forum at least by myself at some point. I know it for sure.

Could you link to that please? This is not a "gotcha", I genuinely want to see this. As I've said, I've been here for years, and I've never heard of this rule. Given how often I post, you'd think that'd be at least worth considering.

I see nothing as unfair as you do.

Clearly, given that you wrote the rules.

I just see the hard work of many people constantly spat on. I also see threats waged in accordance with player activity and presence. This was also done in September, and if anything seems like a different kind of unfairness. Don’t hold your activity hostage. If you don’t like something speak your mind without threats. If you want to leave then leave.

When did I ever make a threat? Again, you're reading too things into my comments that I never wrote. I said if people see unfairness, they might leave, as happened with the inactivity spike almost two years ago. I didn't say I would leave, or that I saw some great unfairness.

You’ve stated your opinion. I have listened and will think upon it. That I assure you. I will not judge your suggestion immediately and may respond later when other opinions are heard. You have told me in the past that you care about this forum and as a result passionately argue for it.

I hope you're being honest here, given the rest of your response's tone. If you are, thank you, and let's leave this here.

That’s fine, but your arguments always come at a cost and always are thinly veiled attacks. There is an entire part of our community that tires of that.

This is highly insulting and patently untrue. My arguments are rare, and the only people who seem to think they're attacks are you and your clique. You and Zeek can tire of whatever you want; I don't think me and you ever had a good and honest OOC or IC interaction, given that you attacked me the first time we talked on Discord. As for me and Zeek, he's never been particularly friendly towards me ever since the Discord argument over whether states are necessary. I get it, I'm a horrible statist, but this has nothing to do with RP.

...and don’t come here saying you don’t want drama. You’ve never done anything but.

Only in your mind, but I don't I'll ever be able to convince you otherwise. You and Zeek took two perfectly non-hostile, albeit rather pointed, honest comments, one of which mostly consisted of questions (not even positive statements), and managed to spawn a discussion on OOC bullying and supposed threats on my part that I never made. If you're this committed to seeing me as a villain, I think the only way for you not to is for us not to talk. I hate to say it, but this is where we are.

 

[The Federation]

Question asking, as you have admitted was in a pointed manner, can be used to inflame others. Since there is no evidence of Xen using mods to an IC advantage your question is unwarranted and pointless in the context of concern over RP. It's just a form of concern trolling and there are many instances of you trolling about PD'ism or just xen's RP in general. Whether it was on discord or on the forum. So I have a really hard time believing you were asking an innocent question.

As for me and Zeek, he's never been particularly friendly towards me ever since the Discord argument over whether states are necessary. I get it, I'm a horrible statist, but this has nothing to do with RP.

I don't have a problem with your political views. This whole statement is wrong. That day you spent almost an hour being a pest about PD and how stupid you think it is and how you can't or won't understand it. You spent the whole time railing on someone else's RP. So i gave a little back to you. You then went on to do this on a few other occasions that I had happened to see. So while I don't have a problem with your personal politics or even anything else you might think, I do have a problem with how you present your opinion of other people's RP. It isn't constructive and a bit mean spirited.

If anything, I could accuse the DDI of IC bullying, but I don't.

But you are accusing, right here, by even mentioning it. There is no IC bullying going on here, the IC positions of our RP nations are pretty clear about the Long Sea. Your rp nation has a history of trying to be the big boy in the long sea and our RP nations are simply presenting a opposition to this as are others that arent even aligned with us. This is another example of the little things that you do to attempt to paint people's actions in this game as illegitimate. It really paints a picture of how you see this game as something to be won. I am just here to have fun, i think the others are as well. If you want to be a winner go play a video game or something that has a clear end goal.

 

[Khemia]

I, frankly, do not want to be seeing the conflating of IC and OOC that this conversation is turning into be brought into this thread. This is a discussion of rules, not of personal grievances about how people RP. If you two have problems, start a new thread, or agree to disagree and continue doing your things. Right now, it's looking to slide into a shit throwing fest, so stop.

We've stopped talking about the rules posted here. Get back on topic, please. @Ambrosia has some good points about reducing the number of rules by eliminating specific instances and establishing better, universal standards, and I think it's worth discussing.