Okay... let's talk about Pannonia

[Radilo]

So @Pelasgia and I are pretty committed to there being... or having been, an entity known as Pannonia that underwent a genocide. So what do we want to do about this? If need be, we could probably modify our lore to adjust to an updated map. But I will contend that this is a rich vein of content for rp and setting up some liminal space in one of the unclaimed portions of Gallio-Germania might not be a bad idea. Or even if we want to just decide that there is no longer a place called Pannonia, but rather just a diaspored ethnic group. I know this is a hold over from the last iteration on the rp, but I think it is one worth maintaining. Having this recently, but not immediately (RIP Caledonia) group of refugees is a good world building vector. I just want to know what everyone thinks.

 

[Bourgardie]

There has been a lot of apprehension in NPC creation. If the forum wants them, I am willing to add them, but the forum has to agree on them. So far, the forum seems to be against it. This can be seen with how we've dealt with Caledonia and Justosia.

If anything, since you are a small nation, why not just have Pannonia under your direct rule or administration? It's far easier to add to your nation to fit your narrative. You'd even get an A++ if you came up with a new name for it, but I won't force that... you can RP as you'd like.

 

[Radilo]

...Fine.

I'm willing to take administration of the little space between Besontia and that one part of Cervia. For the sake of ease, I'm still going to insist on calling it Pannonia. As was mentioned elsewhere, a la Cambodia, you don't need to have an outside/inside group to have a genocide, but that can be hashed out in rp. What do others think?

 

[Józefania]

I have no objection to you taking that little spot for the purposes of resolving the Pannonia issue. It’d be the easiest way to fix it without NPCs etc

 

[Firesea Union]

I maintain that there is no reason for us to even have a single spot that is Pannonia. If it is important to your rp, pelagasia, ostmark, etc its just as easy to have made several small territories which we non-contiguous (ala the medieval territories that often existed) and build the narrative there.

Alternatively, create a small island for it or something in the Long Sea region- but given the nature of a diaspora, it doesn't matter ultimately. And genocide isn't the only one that would cause it- famines and natural disasters cause them too.

 

[Józefania]

I maintain that there is no reason for us to even have a single spot that is Pannonia. If it is important to your rp, pelagasia, ostmark, etc its just as easy to have made several small territories which we non-contiguous (ala the medieval territories that often existed) and build the narrative there.

Alternatively, create a small island for it or something in the Long Sea region- but given the nature of a diaspora, it doesn't matter ultimately. And genocide isn't the only one that would cause it- famines and natural disasters cause them too.

I agree that it's not necessary, but having it be a territory under Radillan control, even as a semi-NPC like the Holy Land, clears up a LOT of confusion about the internal narrative that would otherwise potentially confuse a lot of folks, which is what the problem has been up to this point. By codifying it and adapting it concretely to this scenario, rather than keeping it nebulous, it clears up as much confusion as possible with minimal drama.

 

[Pelasgia]

...Fine.

I'm willing to take administration of the little space between Besontia and that one part of Cervia. For the sake of ease, I'm still going to insist on calling it Pannonia. As was mentioned elsewhere, a la Cambodia, you don't need to have an outside/inside group to have a genocide, but that can be hashed out in rp. What do others think?

Happy with this solution. Anything that gets us a Pannonia, really.

I understand @United Hanseatic States ' apprehension re: NPCs, however, Pannonia really is one of those that left a lot of RP traces behind without an easy substitute, so we need the it to exist more than to do anything--which I think is the ideal place for an NPC.

 

[Bourgardie]

My personal suggestion would be just east of Tyran. It's an area that's not had any interest from any players thus far, so why not finally fill in a void? Plus it has some space and even a resource to give it some spice.

Another idea is within Tyran if you wanted it close to the main area of Eurodisney/Middle Europe. Tyran hasn't posted since the beginning of June and doesn't have an absence post. Since they have their profile set to private I cannot see when they've last logged on, so I can only assume they've left. Unless @Tyran would like to counter that idea and is actually present.

 

[Józefania]

My personal suggestion would be just east of Tyran. It's an area that's not had any interest from any players thus far, so why not finally fill in a void? Plus it has some space and even a resource to give it some spice.

Another idea is within Tyran if you wanted it close to the main area of Eurodisney/Middle Europe. Tyran hasn't posted since the beginning of June and doesn't have an absence post. Since they have their profile set to private I cannot see when they've last logged on, so I can only assume they've left. Unless @Tyran would like to counter that idea and is actually present.

This is also a good idea. I don't believe it'd be a popular area going forward and would also more fit the vibe of a Central/Eastern European Pannonia falling apart.

 

[Radilo]

This is also a good idea. I don't believe it'd be a popular area going forward and would also more fit the vibe of a Central/Eastern European Pannonia falling apart.

That area would work. I'm fine with it being an npc or an occupied territory.

I initially typed "that aria would work." Teenage waitress/soon to be mom on my brain. That's why we need Pannonia to exist. @Ranrike and @Pelasgia know what I'm talking about.

 

[Radilo]

If nobody objects:
Prewar population: ~20 million
Postwar population: ~12 million
Say, ~4 million refugees and ~4 million dead.
I'm kinda basing this off of Cambodia numbers.
Good God this is grim.

 

[Radilo]

So we got the how and what... anyone got ideas for the why? The way I see it, it was a Cambodia-esque genocide, where an ideological faction got waaay too out of hand and started killing people on mass and working people to death in labor camps. This is what got an international coalition of Radilo, @Josepania , and @Pelasgia involved. Far left? Far right? Some anti-Zaran (anti-southern) sentiment? Some mix?

 

[Józefania]

I'd say that we should follow the storyline of old Pannonia from the last scenario somewhat loosely. I'm thinking there would have been a snap election of Zoltán Kovács to the post of Prime Minister in the wake of a collapse of the more centrist and ineffective government. Kovács subsequently increased the abuse and mistreatment of the Zaran minority by scapegoating them for various economic and cultural stagnations, especially surrounding the trial of one Antonio Battara, who was found guilty of two accounts of murder and one account of attempted murder despite the severe lack of evidence.

All of this caught the attention of @Radilo first and foremost, and they'd begin supplying the Zarans with assistance, first covertly, then as the situation rapidly escalated with a declaration of independence by Zara more openly. @Pelasgia could be dragged in because of proximity or some other reason, possibly economic, whereas my own involvement would need to revolve around some kind of serious diplomatic incident. Maybe a young El Presidente Francisco Javier Castro as a Deputy openly visiting the Zarans and showing his support, then being arrested and imprisoned by the Pannonians.

From there, the tripartite coalition could intervene for their own reasons but united in purpose and fight both the Kovács administration as well as communist rebels, both of whom are fanatical and brutal in their tactics, ultimately resulting in defeat and occupation. Josepania and Pelasgia would eventually withdraw, leaving Radilo the sole occupier.

Many, many, many more details need to be filled in, as this is all kinda stream of consciousness, but this could be a decent framework to build on.

 

[Radilo]

@Josepania @Pelasgia

The way I see it, Zarans are a subset of Pannonians, and while all Pannonians are bilingual, Zarans speek neo--Tiburan/Italiote at home as opposed to Pannonian. This bigotry is a somewhat recent development. In that way it might better be compared to the Rwandan Genocide. But with the addition of an ideological faction who willing to kill everyone. That could explain the huge death toll. This obscene violence would also explain why Zarans and other Pannonians don't have a lot of lingering resentment among refugee communities.

 

[Tyran]

From Tyran’s RP perspective, if an unstable entity like Pannonia were to emerge right on Tyran’s doorstep, Tyran would almost certainly feel justified in intervening militarily to “stabilize” the region, and that would likely mean a full-scale occupation.

That kind of setup would quickly shift the narrative away from Pannonia’s own story and turn it into a Tyran-centered conflict, because it's the nearest nation. If the goal is to preserve the themes of diaspora, genocide, and international occupation without immediately pulling Tyran into the mix, then placing Pannonia a farther from Tyran’s borders might work better. Maybe an island.

That way, my RP remains consistent (since Tyran would never tolerate such instability next door), while Pannonia’s story gets more space to develop without being overshadowed by heavy intervention on my part.

 

[Radilo]

From Tyran’s RP perspective, if an unstable entity like Pannonia were to emerge right on Tyran’s doorstep, Tyran would almost certainly feel justified in intervening militarily to “stabilize” the region, and that would likely mean a full-scale occupation.

That kind of setup would quickly shift the narrative away from Pannonia’s own story and turn it into a Tyran-centered conflict, because it's the nearest nation. If the goal is to preserve the themes of diaspora, genocide, and international occupation without immediately pulling Tyran into the mix, then placing Pannonia a farther from Tyran’s borders might work better. Maybe an island.

That way, my RP remains consistent (since Tyran would never tolerate such instability next door), while Pannonia’s story gets more space to develop without being overshadowed by heavy intervention on my part.

But Pannonia, as I drew it poorly, doesn't border Tyran. Defending Zarans (who are broadly similar to Radilans ethnically and linguistically) is a fair casus belli, humanitarian and economic concerns can explain the rest of the coalition as specified by @Josepania in a previous post. If anything Tyran might be comforted that other powers have taken control of the situation and stabilized it.

 

[Tyran]

From Tyran’s RP perspective, even if other powers were to intervene in Pannonia, Tyran would almost certainly be the first to act. The region doesn’t directly border us, but it lies close enough to threaten our offshore gas fields and other vital interests.

Because of that proximity, any instability in Pannonia would immediately be seen in Tyran as a casus belli. While we wouldn’t necessarily oppose a wider coalition effort, the reality is that Tyran would move in quickly to secure its own sphere of influence before relying on others to stabilize the situation.

Beyond that, such a conflict would also provide Tyran with a valuable chance to exercise and test its armed forces in a realistic scenario. At the very least, Tyran would treat Pannonia as a live training ground for its military, ensuring both the protection of national interests and the sharpening of its forces’ operational readiness.

 

[Radilo]

From Tyran’s RP perspective, even if other powers were to intervene in Pannonia, Tyran would almost certainly be the first to act. The region doesn’t directly border us, but it lies close enough to threaten our offshore gas fields and other vital interests.

Because of that proximity, any instability in Pannonia would immediately be seen in Tyran as a casus belli. While we wouldn’t necessarily oppose a wider coalition effort, the reality is that Tyran would move in quickly to secure its own sphere of influence before relying on others to stabilize the situation.

Beyond that, such a conflict would also provide Tyran with a valuable chance to exercise and test its armed forces in a realistic scenario. At the very least, Tyran would treat Pannonia as a live training ground for its military, ensuring both the protection of national interests and the sharpening of its forces’ operational readiness.

You're right. We'll have to work it out in more detail, but say Radilo occupies Italoite speaking Zara in the south and Tyran occupies the northern part of the country. That's the more rugged, partisan influenced area anyway, if you want to give your army some practice. So, overall, we have a four-way alliance that forms to go in: @Tyran @Pelasgia @Josepania and Radilo. All with different motives but the same goal; once the war is "won" Radilo and Tyran divide the occupation zones. Or something like that. Plus we can have some fun with our soldiers interacting, trading smokes and stories.

 

[Radilo]

I have a new proposal. Pannonia is no longer located where I initially suggested on this forum, but as discussed on discord, but instead in the gap between @Besontia and the @Tiburan Union . This would make it a more Italian-esque focused conflict and we can keep more of the original plot line going. We may need to change up the ethnic mix of Pannonia from being principally Hungarian to something else, or we may not. This will have to be worked out. Some have proposed a mixture of Italian (Italoite) and Burgundian/Provencal (southern French), which I am open to. This might make more sense given Radilo's @Pelasgia 's and @Josepania 's dispositions and locations.

 

[Tiburan Union]

I'm not sure the proposed solution is much better now that it borders me. The same questions that arose for Tyran arise for me, with the difference that I am the largest nation with Italian culture, and that would make it difficult for me to ignore the conflict. I don't see how this could have escaped me or my previous individual states, to allow external nations to intervene in what we would have considered a "culturally" internal conflict.