Drang Nach Osten

[Caelia]

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Result of a Skype discussion + Davy.

There are, as you can see, a few things going on in this map, but the one I made this thread to discuss is (unsurprisingly) Kyiv. This is a realization of something I have been thinking about for awhile: the eastward movement of Kyiv. Kyiv would shed space in the west and spread north and east. This would hopefully kill two birds with one stone: Create more spots in the 'core' eurodisney region (the area labelled C would become two-three news spot), and bridge the gap of nothingness that was created by the departure of the Mezhist union.

At Davy's suggestion this map also incorporates significant changes to the northern border of Kyiv, primarily for aesthetic purposes. Changes which are in my opinion a significant improvement. But obviously I am biased.

Your thoughts, gentlemen?

 

[Sixia]

Interesting solution to a problem with that particular region.

Though having so many more plots would also mean its harder to fill that area than current plot placements. Though I suppose the changes would still leave less white blank spots since they're occupied by Kyiv.

I'm not sure about wiping Mezhist Union off the map. They were still on the map for a reason, so I would presume they had some significance to remain as an NPC.

I would support it. More space in Euro Disney would be nice. We're also severely lacking in Slavic countries from what I'm noticing, the new "C" plot can host new Slavic countries. And they better, because Belka (my second nation) does have a significant number of Slavic people (or Pontus if you will). That also seems tempting for me to reposition Belka to gain access to the seas, but that also seems unfair to claim.

An alternative is to just claim one of the existing spots and shift to Kyiv more to the east, making room for the new "C" plot to emerge.

 

[Tyvia]

Though having so many more plots would also mean its harder to fill that area than current plot placements. Though I suppose the changes would still leave less white blank spots since they're occupied by Kyiv.

Yeah, they're kind of provisional and by no means an actual suggestions. The plots aren't what's important, but Kyiv's extension and the continental/sea/land changes are.

 

[Thaumantica]

You explained what C is, but what does A, B, D, E and F mean? E seems like the creation of a wider dynamic sea situation, which I would gladly support. Otherwise I do not see how doing most of this will help you or Xenn get closer in RP, which I think was the goal here, when there's still two NPC's and a player nation between you after this proposed change, this does not seem like a magic wand solution here. Honestly the easiest thing would be to put you in what's S1, where an iteration of Kyiv used to be, and see if you fair out yonder. Or hell don't try to do Kyiv 5.3 and just go East as an alteration of Boliatur with a new name / design while keeping the fundamentals of Boliatur.

You bridging east and west as a player just isn't going to happen, and if you give up on the project after we make the map change it's yet harder to fill even than Mezhist Union. I want you to succeed and enjoy yourself, but as the mapmaker I have to look ahead even beyond you and see what's best for the entire community - and this isn't it. If you disappear we suddenly have to fill this unusually large gap with someone or some people and it'd be even more crucial than filling the current gap is because it runs so far. Imagine some goober swooping in and suddenly commanding this megalithic spot.

Also I think putting some token frozen islands above it all would make it look better, and that's a good improvement I'd guess Davy was suggesting.

 

[Tyvia]

A), whereby several spots are created in an area of great proximity to the heart of Eurodisneyland, thus providing a zone for further Middle-Eastern/European/Anatolian/etc.-type nations, and a "peripheral" area adjacent to that Sarmatian sea hub which could serve to stimulate, encourage, and drive activity in the region. Further, the geography proposed creates a zone of geostrategic interest (in the form of the peninsulas and isles) by constricting the Long Sea somewhat and making the coastline altogether less uniform. Touyou is also brought a bit closer to northern Himyar, thus setting up the history of cultural/economic interexchange between the two (Islam, trade, etc.) a bit more nicely. D refers to pretty much the same thing.

B is the expansion of Kyiv. I don't really care about that myself, so I'll let him talk about it.

C would be the splitting of it into a few map spots, yeah.

E, well, you've figured that out on your own!

 

[Caelia]

Just chop it up then. The basic contours of the current spots would still exist, and you could split it into at least four new big spots.

Now that area will be desolate. But it already is. I am only there for what are essentially legacy reasons, if I left there would already be a void stretching from Franken to Boliatur.

 

[Caelia]

You explained what C is, but what does A, B, D, E and F mean? E seems like the creation of a wider dynamic sea situation, which I would gladly support. Otherwise I do not see how doing most of this will help you or Xenn get closer in RP, which I think was the goal here, when there's still two NPC's and a player nation between you after this proposed change, this does not seem like a magic wand solution here. Honestly the easiest thing would be to put you in what's S1, where an iteration of Kyiv used to be, and see if you fair out yonder. Or hell don't try to do Kyiv 5.3 and just go East as an alteration of Boliatur with a new name / design while keeping the fundamentals of Boliatur.

This would also have the minor side-effect of blowing up Padraig's RP.

And really, It was the dumb decision of the mapmakers to expand central Asia that killed any possibility of a Eurasian nation which has caused the vast dead-zone between Touyou and Eurodisney. S1 (which was supposed to be on the far periphery of western civilization) is now a couple thousand kilometers removed from the west and, as a standalone, makes no sense except as an Asian country. S2 was supposed to be approximately Poland after all. Now it is like Kazakhstan.

This space will simply never be filled by players. Especially if I dump the current iteration of Kyiv.

Edit: Just remember that Kyiv was more than doubled in size, just to border the Mezhist union. Which was already the largest spot on the map. I cannot fathom who though we needed so much space between Touyou and Germania!

 

[Khemia]

Edit: Just remember that Kyiv was more than doubled in size, just to border the Mezhist union. Which was already the largest spot on the map. I cannot fathom who though we needed so much space between Touyou and Germania!

I do have to agree here. Why not just eliminate the unused areas east-west between galich and sikandara. Bring East and West closer. Also, for E... just finish through it connect the two oceans. It'd help connect any future countries in F region with the rest of the world. That said, I don't think Kyiv needs to be expanded so large. I also think the withdrawal from Eurodisney would create some good new plots between them. I'd use it as an opportunity to connect Belka with the sea and create some more "near land-locked" plots. Anyways, good talk guys. Good talk.

 

[Serenierre]

As I was in a hurry, I did not read the comments, so I apologize if I have re-stated a point.

1) I oppose wiping off the Mezhist Union. Leave it as a NPC.
2) This is the second enlargement of Kyiv, much larger than the first. Another reason for me to be not too keen on this.
3) I hope my border in the exclave is not being altered.
4) I like the change to the Central Asia region, as in the bit to my north and west. It will lead to interesting RP dynamics.
5) I would like to see a re-development of our version of Eastern Europe simply because Germania is looking very much like its overstuffed. Plus a Slavic region would be a nice break from all them Germanics.

 

[Touzen]

Looks fine to me. I especially like that this brings you closer to the Touyou. Also as this isn't a high demand area to begin with, I don't see any issues should Kyiv disappear - it will just get split into several spots again and that is that. As for the area between Germania and Touyou I think it will be fine, especially if both this expansion and my changes to my RP would go ahead.

 

[Thaumantica]

This would also have the minor side-effect of blowing up Padraig's RP.

And really, It was the dumb decision of the mapmakers to expand central Asia that killed any possibility of a Eurasian nation which has caused the vast dead-zone between Touyou and Eurodisney. S1 (which was supposed to be on the far periphery of western civilization) is now a couple thousand kilometers removed from the west and, as a standalone, makes no sense except as an Asian country. S2 was supposed to be approximately Poland after all. Now it is like Kazakhstan.

This space will simply never be filled by players. Especially if I dump the current iteration of Kyiv.

Edit: Just remember that Kyiv was more than doubled in size, just to border the Mezhist union. Which was already the largest spot on the map. I cannot fathom who though we needed so much space between Touyou and Germania!

I think Xenn was the dumbbell who you can't fathom, it actually had something to do with fitting the map to the globe which wasn't syncing up - the continent had to be widened to fit an analogous earth wrap. If you look at the globe and highlight RL borders, you'll see that Yujin fits perfectly in to China and Touzen is within Japan mostly. Then on the other side RL Europe ends where our Eurodisney does, but a little less exact. So voila.

About extending Kyiv though, I think we can give it a try if your neighbors in the region do not object (Sikandra, the Greeks, Ivernia, Beishan who seems to be moving now anyhow). I have the prejudice that this is doomed to not work, or that you'll give up on it, but I want to try and give you the benefit of giving you the tools you ask for to see what happens.

 

[Sixia]

I wouldn't object to Kyiv's shift if I were to stay in my original spot. I am actually waiting to see if this map amendment would put Beishan in a more favourable position than it is now before I shoot myself in the foot by moving south, only to now have the north become more valuable/attractive to foreigners. I mean say if Touyou were to separate from "Central Asia", opening a new channel splitting the two continents or the distance between Gallia-Germania and Toyou shrinks significantly. Meta? Perhaps. I just wanted to be on the safe side and not cause more personal grief for being over eager/impatient on moving my shit down south.

 

[Thaumantica]

Additionally: try to sell us on the idea a bit, Kyiv. How in working terms would this benefit your RP and everyone else? How will your history change and who can get involved in that? That's the type of question we ask when someone wants a colony or map change, some background and basis for the change. Putting a lot of the continental changes aside, what is your immediate vision for the Kyiv RP?

 

[Ionia]

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Result of a Skype discussion + Davy.

There are, as you can see, a few things going on in this map, but the one I made this thread to discuss is (unsurprisingly) Kyiv. This is a realization of something I have been thinking about for awhile: the eastward movement of Kyiv. Kyiv would shed space in the west and spread north and east. This would hopefully kill two birds with one stone: Create more spots in the 'core' eurodisney region (the area labelled C would become two-three news spot), and bridge the gap of nothingness that was created by the departure of the Mezhist union.

At Davy's suggestion this map also incorporates significant changes to the northern border of Kyiv, primarily for aesthetic purposes. Changes which are in my opinion a significant improvement. But obviously I am biased.

Your thoughts, gentlemen?

I'm opposed to expanding Samaritia so much to the south and west.

 

[Serenierre]

Apart from Point E, I am not too keen on this proposal. From my perspective, an eastwards expansion would drastically change the dynamics of the region. My apologies to Kyiv, but I can't support an eastwards expansion. Also, as I stated earlier, I do not want the Mezhist Union removed as an NPC.

 

[Touzen]

I'm actually in favor because it would change the dynamics. It's no different from a new person joining except that it's an old player who might feel joy in the game once more.

 

[Ionia]

Just to make my position clearer I don't want a change in shape of the part of Samaritia near Ionia but I don;t have any problem with changing Kyiv's shape. After all I believe that since it's his nation, if he provides an adequate new slot, he's free to change the shape of his nation any time he wants. Not everything needs to have an actual IC and RP use as long as it's fairly done. I guess the rest is up to Beishan and the other "Asian" nations but once again I don't want the shape of the map near me to change.

 

[Caelia]

I think Xenn was the dumbbell who you can't fathom, it actually had something to do with fitting the map to the globe which wasn't syncing up - the continent had to be widened to fit an analogous earth wrap. If you look at the globe and highlight RL borders, you'll see that Yujin fits perfectly in to China and Touzen is within Japan mostly. Then on the other side RL Europe ends where our Eurodisney does, but a little less exact. So voila.

Ok. But it was still a bad idea. Central asia has never been (and will never be) an in-demand area.

I've said several times now that the long-running trend towards making the map imitate earth for the sake of imitating earth has been ICly detrimental.

About extending Kyiv though, I think we can give it a try if your neighbors in the region do not object (Sikandra, the Greeks, Ivernia, Beishan who seems to be moving now anyhow)

Ionia and Sikandara are not even my neighbors. And they never will be. An accurate list of people directly (as in, Kyiv can interact with them directly) affected by the change would be: Ivernia, Yuijn, Touzen, Beishan, Galich, Tulun. And so we are clear: I am not here to advocate the other map changes in that proposal. I like them, but they are a different issue for a different place.

What will be gained? I will regain what was lost. Kyiv used to directly integrated into the history of Touyou and was a direct competitor of Oikawa of yore. But it also had one foot in Gallo-Germania. See: Batavie crisis. Which is a good example of something that cannot happen anymore: Toyou and Gallo-Germania and now separate entities.

I have the prejudice that this is doomed to not work, or that you'll give up on it, but I want to try and give you the benefit of giving you the tools you ask for to see what happens.

And to give a concrete example of what I could do right now: Yujin has approached me about becoming involved in his civil war. I would. But it is geographically implausible right now. The Northern route to Yujin is shorter, but it freezes over for half the year. The southern route is something like 15,000km long. One of the paradoxes of my position is that while players with tiny nations who have dotted the map with colonies (Engellex, Etnae, Hulst) are rewarded OOCly with the ability to involve themselves almost anywhere in the world, me with my big spot can hardly involve myself beyond scania without breaking out the stargates. That I intentionally downplay my naval power only makes my situation worse.

I have never claimed a carrier armada (not even in Classic!) and I have never engaged in colonialism. What is the result of this? Everything moves farther away from me.

I have the prejudice that this is doomed to not work, or that you'll give up on it, but I want to try and give you the benefit of giving you the tools you ask for to see what happens.

I feel this is very unfair to me, insulting even. When you felt your nations position was ICly untenable, you picked up your whole nation and dropped it into the middle of Gallo-Germania (and created an NPC to fill its unfillable old spot, no less). This was far more dramatic than anything I am contemplating. Aside from two short (one abortive) vacations with different nations, I have been persevering with various incarnations of Kyiv for longer than you have been on the forum. If I 'abandon' Kyiv I will almost inevitably return as another version of Kyiv.

I am not a very active player, but I am a very consistent one. Certainly more consistent than you. Kyiv has existed in one form or another for just a few months short of a decade now. 2/5ths of my entire life! How long do I need to keep this up before you will accept it isn't going anywhere?

 

[Ivernia]

As an actual neighbour of Kyiv, his most active neighbour, and his neighbour with the most interaction with the KNRR,

I will just say I support his plan here and have no problem with it. Shaking up Kyiv to the new position will help keep more lifelines open for the nation than just Ivernia (Who is a hostile nation) and I support almost any position that would help Kyiv RP a little bit more. Especially if it means owning land that gets on average one map request per year at most. And is for all intents and purposes a dead zone.

Just one opinion of course, but as I said I am one of his more prominent neighbours, and I have no prob with his plans.

 

[Thaumantica]

When you felt your nations position was ICly untenable, you picked up your whole nation and dropped it into the middle of Gallo-Germania (and created an NPC to fill its unfillable old spot, no less). This was far more dramatic than anything I am contemplating.

Just to be clear: Zivotinje was a dual state with Sarmatia, Sarmatia quit so I moved on to Cantignia Colony of Engellex, Engellex stopped roleplaying Engellex for half a year before I decided maybe I should try an RP project that isn't a client state of a more powerful nation. If you have an issue with the NPC then please broach it in the map thread or somewhere, I gave folks time to object to all of that before moving, as I figured it was fair to Engellex if its colony wasn't busted out because I flaked on trying to play it all by my lonesome.

I am not a very active player, but I am a very consistent one. Certainly more consistent than you. Kyiv has existed in one form or another for just a few months short of a decade now. 2/5ths of my entire life! How long do I need to keep this up before you will accept it isn't going anywhere?

This has always seemed like a damning type of consistency, the weighing of many years of what Kyiv was and what others expect it to be. It's the same reason why I think Talemantros playing Talemantros is a bad idea, or Jose playing as Danmark - you guys can easily get hung up on problems from another scenario and setting. I think that was one of the reasons you gave up on Kyiv a year or two ago to play West March for awhile, which I think was a good nation, before you came back to Kyiv. I honestly can't imagine trying to do the same thing for this long, after the second or third try I might start to think something was wrong. But then again, I'm not the THOMAS Edison of Roleplayers, I'm somewhat flaky.