The Old Map Critique & Discussion Thread

[Polesia]

coro, always bitchin, never RPin

 

[Akwesasne]

In the spirit of natives everywhere... Give me my land back!

 

[Remuria]

I do not like it. The NC is all snuggly together, while the GL loses two of its members to far, far away. An important part of my geopolitical RP and history goes to lands far, far away and, in the end, makes no sense. In addition, HGE history would be messed up.

Whilst Coro's latest reincarnation does not lose anything. So yes, I am opposed to the map as proposed by Coro.

 

[Great Engellex]

I just wanted to say, I do believe Coro's map is in the right direction. For example, the changes to the Western continent are, in my honest opinion, a great improvement. As for Germania, it is needed. We simply cannot ignore the fact that many players want to RP European nations, this is, after all, NS-Europe. As for histories, while it would be an inconvenience, they can be tweaked to work around map changes, and, I am willing to do the same should a map like the one Coro has put forward becomes implemented.

 

[Saxe-Friesken and Polaben]

Damn Coro, relax for a second will ya. It's just a game.

Heh, you know as well as I that map making takes time and people who bitch uselessly are just annoying. Also I wrote that post after coming out from a night of drinking, and thus perhaps it's more aggressive that myself usually.

The Great War is a legitimate concern. Well planned or not it s the most important event in the past hundred years and explains large swaths of our current situation. It simply cannot be negated and introducing spots in Germania as you have is a serious disruption. The number of spots that can reasonably be introduced there is limited and their placement must be very careful. I'm sure we all apprecitiate your effort, but this is something that we really mustn't budge on. Trying to make the south a more appealing place to newcomers may be a good priority to have.

I honestly don't see it that way. New players WILL fill in those voids and in my opinion will create a best chance for a more expanded and better Western Great War. I think a lot of you guys are missing the point. We expand it because so many people want to RP there. That means voids will be filled and histories can be expanded even further with more players.

Also, I wouldn't be opposed to the expansion of older nations there. For example Monty looks kinda small now due to the update, why not expand him northwards to help decrease the void?

Let's not think so shallow and really think outside of the box.

coro, always bitchin, never RPin

no u

I do not like it. The NC is all snuggly together, while the GL loses two of its members to far, far away. An important part of my geopolitical RP and history goes to lands far, far away and, in the end, makes no sense. In addition, HGE history would be messed up.

Whilst Coro's latest reincarnation does not lose anything. So yes, I am opposed to the map as proposed by Coro.

So, your opposition is because I personally don't lose anything? Wow that's pretty bitter.

Does the distance really hammer the GL? Or can some nations not move closer to each other now? These kinds of things you guys are arguing about NEVER would've happened in the old NSEurope Classic. If these are the things you guys oppose. Then the current map is fine. It is impossible to tweak the map to fix our current problem as many of you guys don't realize that the south cannot be made more appealing. We've instituted regionalism on this map. Therefore nobody wants to explain their strange weird Germanic ties a billion miles away.

That said, I'm looking into a seconds draft. Probably a few days away which addresses the current whining and will just expand the Nordiclands.

 

[Thaumantica]

Good Coro, we have seen your Black Swan. Now show us your White Swan, we need to know you can play both the Black and White Swan.

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[Batavië]

I really enjoyed seeing this map. I was expecting a massive disruption and change, but what I saw instead was a nicely done edit in which we get more 'European' spaces and a true, open Great Sea. The 'blank' spaces will quickly be taken up and, as Coro said, history will be expanded and made better. The western continent even looks attractive now, Himyar also looks loads better with some nice larger spots and we have, all around, we now have more open seas, always good to see.

I hope this gets adopted in some form.

 

[Remuria]

So, your opposition is because I personally don't lose anything? Wow that's pretty bitter.

You did not quite catch it. I lose something, you lose nothing. I am opposed to a map where I lose something whilst the creator of the map does not lose anything. And where the map's creator's pet project does not lose anything, those projects the creator has a personal dent against become pointless. GL, EDF, all those Coro has a personal OOC vendetta against for God knows what reason see themselves in a mess. This reeks of bad faith miles around.

Does the distance really hammer the GL?

Yes. Geographic continuity is quintessential to the GL. It is the whole point of the organisation. Wendmark and Wiese gain free commercial sea access, Franken, Danmark and Eiffelland get free commercial transit. Anything that changes Danmark's and Eiffelland's positions as coastal countries bordering on Wiese and Wendmark makes the entire idea pointless.

I was expecting a massive disruption and change, but what I saw instead was a nicely done edit in which we get more 'European' spaces and a true, open Great Sea.

There is no disruption or change for you, but there is a lot for other people. Hence proving my first point.

 

[Batavië]

I would have said my two cents and then dealt with it. A reform is going to involve changed positions and borders for some people. It's inevitable. I believe that Coro did a nice job limiting it. We've had edits that totally wipe out subcontinents, so this is pretty tame considering the past.

You could provide some sketches or suggestions of your own. With that region so high in demand, it's not realistic to suggest that nothing there will change.

 

[Remuria]

Who says the region is in high demand? So far, we've had the most demands for Scanian pixels in the North. Telora wanted an island up North, Coro took that as an invitation to start a new ruckus and modify everything else but Scania.

And I find it entirely logical to oppose a reform that hurts me personally whilst sparing many other people from any other hurt. And a reform that gives me absolutely nothing in return, at that! So I will oppose any proposals that hurt me whilst not hurting others. Either everybody has to make an effort, or we keep things as they are. And personally, I like things just as they are.

 

[Khalistan]

Though I have read posts from only one person that actually has very vocal issues with my proposal, and I do wonder why if it was adopted he would ignore it when he would expect everyone to recognize his, I have come up with a couple more proposals that I have attempted to disrupt as few people as possible. I know the first one will likely cause blood to spurt, but the second might be a little more palitable

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[Beautancus]

Thanks for that input, coro. I do think the more interesting question is how our userbase should be composed: Do we expect the majority to be uber-frequent contributors, do we "tolerate" occasional gamers, where do we draw the line between gameplay-distrupting nation-changing and needed adaptions and how tolerant are we of our IC-identity-challenged members?

In this quote, one can note the transition of a certain Bavarian from civilized wine drinking, to the more rowdy whiskey drinking that I so enjoy. To have seen this, what I would gauge as ErAn loosing his cool, validates this thread through and through. Well done all.

 

[Montelimar]

... couple more proposals that I have attempted to disrupt as few people as possible.

I think the fewest disruptions should be one of the criteria in a map change, but that is just me.

 

[Caelia]

Though I have read posts from only one person that actually has very vocal issues with my proposal, and I do wonder why if it was adopted he would ignore it when he would expect everyone to recognize his, I have come up with a couple more proposals that I have attempted to disrupt as few people as possible. I know the first one will likely cause blood to spurt, but the second might be a little more palitable

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Well I have reservations about making "Eurasia" so long I like this.

Maybe the "North America" continent could be brought a bit closer to Eurasia? It looks so lonely all the way out there.

 

[Thaumantica]

Well I have reservations about making "Eurasia" so long I like this.

Maybe the "North America" continent could be brought a bit closer to Eurasia? It looks so lonely all the way out there.

I think Kyiv sees how this would inconvenience his Navy's access through the North on in to the West, and does not like being cut off. A warranted gripe though, as I see our land or even aerial access to the west inconvenienced and cut off by this.

Anyways, I see Q as the true architect of the Great War. If this will truly ruin the vision of the conflict, which I do not view as a collective vision, then I think Q deserves a weighted say in the alteration of the "mainland" continent of Europe.

 

[Khalistan]

Well I have reservations about making "Eurasia" so long I like this.

Maybe the "North America" continent could be brought a bit closer to Eurasia? It looks so lonely all the way out there.

OK. Here is something a little more compact

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[Batavië]

Interesting ideas, but it seems more like adding on pieces or inserts rather than really reshaping like coro's version. A healthy mix or consultation between both of you could yield some interesting options.

 

[Touzen]

Alternatively plots that are opening up now (Dracun etc.) and in the future in the "Europe" area could simply be cut in multiple plot.

 

[Batavië]

Alternatively plots that are opening up now (Dracun etc.) and in the future in the "Europe" area could simply be cut in multiple plot.

This. We could definitely do with smaller plots. A lot of countries are of similar size and we need more Belgium/Switzerland sized plots. It would encourage people to also RP countries like what Q is doing with Vistrasia, 9 million residents. I'm RPing around 17 million now and if I wasn't settled, I would have gone for a smaller spot if there were more.

 

[Saxe-Friesken and Polaben]

You did not quite catch it. I lose something, you lose nothing. I am opposed to a map where I lose something whilst the creator of the map does not lose anything. And where the map's creator's pet project does not lose anything, those projects the creator has a personal dent against become pointless. GL, EDF, all those Coro has a personal OOC vendetta against for God knows what reason see themselves in a mess. This reeks of bad faith miles around.

Yes. Geographic continuity is quintessential to the GL. It is the whole point of the organisation. Wendmark and Wiese gain free commercial sea access, Franken, Danmark and Eiffelland get free commercial transit. Anything that changes Danmark's and Eiffelland's positions as coastal countries bordering on Wiese and Wendmark makes the entire idea pointless.

There is no disruption or change for you, but there is a lot for other people. Hence proving my first point.

Heh, you kids always sound so paranoid. But it's inane accusations like this that do give me grudges and gripes against you guys. Again, I didn't see much of a mess. Things like the GL haven't been talked about since it was created... in fact it's so lame I forgot it even existed. So excuse me while I pay attention to other nation's RP.

Additionally, I love how RP that I make against you guys means I have problems with your guys to a level where I'd unilaterally destroy your RP. It's called creating conflict and making the community interesting. Not everyone just likes to hold each other's cocks and pretend we live in a happy world. Additionally also love how you guys are always the ones bitching because you guys are actually the most inflexible RP players. This might also be why the RP out of the EDF players is so one track minded and otherwise bland and boring. (Aside from Franken's which lately as picked up to be something of interest, probably thanks to Gunn)

As for disruption to me, I didn't see much of a reason to screw with it too much. It's the far north, to make shit further north defeats the meaning of the words far and north. Oddly enough, central can be expanded and still be central. So that's my defense there. That said, I am trying to expand things in a slightly different manner in the north. However in doing so, things will be moved around in a much different manner. Meaning, Hey Germania, enjoy being closer to the equator. Choose your poison.

Lastly, you (Wendmark) display infinite arrogance and infinite ignorance by continuing to act like you know anything about the mapping problem. This didn't just arrive with Telora's application. You'll note we have Germanic nations being thrown into the frosty north because of no space in the region where they'd like to be located. In fact, if the central germanian region had space, Telora wouldn't be in this problem. The world doesn't revolve around you. When mapping I consider several nations and several RP's. In fact I even considered your lame ass by keeping you as close to Wiese and Franken as possible because I felt that to be key to your RP. On top of that, I feel in such a map expansion nations like Danmark and Eiffelland ought to relocate themselves to better maintain their Germanic trends and allow for new cultures to sprout. You know, maybe have some Czechs or Italians or something else than just infinite Germans ranging from coast to coast.

This. We could definitely do with smaller plots. A lot of countries are of similar size and we need more Belgium/Switzerland sized plots. It would encourage people to also RP countries like what Q is doing with Vistrasia, 9 million residents. I'm RPing around 17 million now and if I wasn't settled, I would have gone for a smaller spot if there were more.

I like the idea in spirit, but honestly doubt populations would be smaller. As I make a second draft attempt of sorts, I'll consider some smaller plots, especially on the coasts to encourage their development. See if such a grand experiment would work or not...

...Oh and as for the other suggestions made by Khalistan, I like those better, but I'm not sure if they achieve the entire goal because it just makes things longer. I've looked into this in the past, and was never happy with it simply because I didn't feel it solved the problem and honestly all it does it rip Sarmatia and Germania in half. I suppose it's up to the forum if they feel that is a better solution or not. ...but at least those suggestions don't entirely change Himyar so that it's no longer representing an Arabic-African land.

EDIT: @Anglyn: Wait... did you even look at the map carefully? I was looking it over seeing where I might need to change the western area again so people are happy, and notice... hey you plot does have a second coast in the west! Plus you have a choke hold on the strait via your island, and I think your plot looks sexy... so... damn?