Map Guidelines and the Basic Colony or Territorial Expansion Process

[Jydsken-Østveg]

So I haven't RPed at all in the forum. I've only ever created drama. Clearly.

You like really direct English I see... perhaps we’ll revisit this topic soon...

Libel is a heavy word. I ask you to point to one instance of libel. Don't throw around words you don't know the meaning of. If I had said "Xen told you to make these rules and you did" that would be libel. Did I? No. You and Zeek are extrapolating things from my comments that I never meant and never said.

You can be friends with Xen or not, it's not my issue. I have never "attacked" your friend. You have attacked me multiple times on Discord, by contrast, including the very first time we met. See the difference?

No, actually. We discussed this in our last argument. I didn’t attack you the first time we met. I already had quarrel with you then from our priors. Remember... I knew who you were and you just didn’t remember me. Don’t forget... I’ve been on this forum since 2004.

Seeing how suddenly now I find you inexperienced in English, I don’t think you have a right to lecture me on the usage of words. ...and you have attacked Xen before on his RP. I won’t let you get away with that. You also have attacked him on a whole host of other things I cannot even keep track of. I’m sure Xen has though.

I am not bullying anyone. If anything, I could accuse the DDI of IC bullying, but I don't.

Now you have. English isn’t so one dimensional as you believe it to be. Nor any language any really. — On the IC topic itself, you brought it upon yourself. You think you can just leave the forum and our RP interests in keeping the Long Sea region open and free goes away? You think you can just disappear for a few months and then poke the issue of Jews in the Holy Land and the DDI and WZC just ignore it? The first news post you made coming back was a direct confrontation with the DDI and its foreign interests. You can claim ignorance, but the world is not static while you are away. We keep RPing and we don’t forget our strategic interests.

I disagree on both points regarding RP and presence, though I fail to see what any of this has to do with forum rules. Your opinion of my RP is irrelevant, both to me and to this topic. Please remain on topic. I always do come for good discussion, Coro. Of the last great forum OOC fights, how many have I been a party to? Zero, to the best of my recollection. I always try to calm people down and remain neutral, as my attitude during the Beautancus debacle showed.

My dear sir... I only brought it up because you did. See... Sure you can retort I didn’t mean that... look at the words directly... your words are read that way.

With all due respect, we need to stop citing the discord and any other private or off-forum discussion as a source of law for the forum. I have been on this forum since 2016, and have literally never heard of the Toyou Ban. Instead, I've seen multiple states in Toyou of various cultures and state types, and I've seen no discussion on them regarding Xen or Post-Delegationism. To say these rules have always been around and were just written down is a bit inaccurate in my opinion; this is your interpretation of our customary laws. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm saying it's an interpretation, not the positive law beyond all reproach.

Could you link to that please? This is not a "gotcha", I genuinely want to see this. As I've said, I've been here for years, and I've never heard of this rule. Given how often I post, you'd think that'd be at least worth considering.

Certainly. You’ll find it the Touzensphere thread. Which I find interesting, considering all the questions you ask about Post-Delegationism and all the trolling you do about it... funny. I guess you never read about it. There is even a little back and forth about the ban in the thread with Nichtstein and a mention about how it was declared openly on the map application thread at that time.

You must be registered for see links

Clearly, given that you wrote the rules.

Rules that have always been in existence. Only things I have written specifically is an attempt to organize general applications. Your qualm is with things that have existed long before that you‘ve failed to read... things that existed and for some reason you’re only at odds with when I write them.

When did I ever make a threat? Again, you're reading too things into my comments that I never wrote. I said if people see unfairness, they might leave, as happened with the inactivity spike almost two years ago. I didn't say I would leave, or that I saw some great unfairness.

You don’t have to write it specifically to suggest it. English isn’t a language where one always speaks directly.

I hope you're being honest here, given the rest of your response's tone. If you are, thank you, and let's leave this here.

Am I honest. It’s the only part where you were being productive and giving us idea on how to improve things. It has merit and is worth discussion and consideration. If it’s well liked I could add it to modified rules or simply make the rules something shorter like that.

This is highly insulting and patently untrue. My arguments are rare, and the only people who seem to think they're attacks are you and your clique. You and Zeek can tire of whatever you want; I don't think me and you ever had a good and honest OOC or IC interaction, given that you attacked me the first time we talked on Discord. As for me and Zeek, he's never been particularly friendly towards me ever since the Discord argument over whether states are necessary. I get it, I'm a horrible statist, but this has nothing to do with RP.

I retort with your own quote:

It's only inflammatory if you're looking to be inflamed.

Only in your mind, but I don't I'll ever be able to convince you otherwise. You and Zeek took two perfectly non-hostile, albeit rather pointed, honest comments, one of which mostly consisted of questions (not even positive statements), and managed to spawn a discussion on OOC bullying and supposed threats on my part that I never made. If you're this committed to seeing me as a villain, I think the only way for you not to is for us not to talk. I hate to say it, but this is where we are.

I don’t want see you as a villain! I said it in my previous post! You simply make comments that are thinly veiled attacks. You can take responsibility for them and say sorry... preferably not make them again and we can all move on. I openly came forward and said sorry to you last time we had an argument. If you think I’ve been especially hostile to you here, I am sorry then. However, you can’t just walk up and say the things you say and then put the blame at our feet.

 

[Thaumantica]

Rebooting thread back to where it was a discussion of propose rules:

Scrubbing references to individual players as rules seemed to me to be the underlying issue, inspiring a great deal of animus.

There shouldn’t be a Gunn rule, just a side rule to describe why keeping or not keeping nations on the map is useful if they are relevant to histories. The same with Engellex: I just don’t think a new player will know what to make of that, and a returning player could probably sort it out or not on their own over whether to be of Engellex or not.

And concerning the Touzen and Toyou business: this sort of rule should be universalized to describe how new player nations must recognize and somewhat conform to established history and norms of regions they wish to enter. It’s a collaborative game, and sometimes I gather collaboration is difficult, but I recommend a process where a new claim can be challenged based off an RP or IC merit, and baked into that is a necessity of the challenger recommending a remedy or alternatives.

 

[Furlanìe]

Well do as you want then

 

[Khemia]

I agree with the points made by Ambrosia. I'm not sure the Gunnland rule has ever been enforced, and if it has, I'm sure it'd been done selectively - particularly because GR-13c contradicts it. A 3 month or more absence will almost always only be for extreme personal reasons. I mean, it's a bizarre rule name to begin with, Gunnland hasn't been around in nearly a year, and is only kept in existence because of Elben. And, considering GR-13f, no one has taken over Gunnland, so has that concept actually been salvaged?

I also agree on the Toyou rule being universal, yet less strict, since there's a perception that it's non-constructive right now. Gallo-Germania has also repelled people whose cultures did not fit into the weave, though traditionally it's been more accepting. Himyar takes pretty much anything, those people are always just happy to take anyone, but that's the way of the region. I think there should be a collaborative, and constructive, nation-building process prior to RP that receives feedback from at least neighbors, rather than straight up veto's. Applicants should be understanding that their nations are not existing in a vaccuum, they connect to the histories of those around them, and if a person wants to play something unacceptable to the narrative, and isn't willing to change the idea, the neighbors can veto it.

 

[Pelasgia]

There shouldn’t be a Gunn rule, just a side rule to describe why keeping or not keeping nations on the map is useful if they are relevant to histories. The same with Engellex: I just don’t think a new player will know what to make of that, and a returning player could probably sort it out or not on their own over whether to be of Engellex or not.

And concerning the Touzen and Toyou business: this sort of rule should be universalized to describe how new player nations must recognize and somewhat conform to established history and norms of regions they wish to enter. It’s a collaborative game, and sometimes I gather collaboration is difficult, but I recommend a process where a new claim can be challenged based off an RP or IC merit, and baked into that is a necessity of the challenger recommending a remedy or alternatives.

Fully agree with Ambrosia here. New nations should conform to the character of the region they are seeking to enter, with room for IC and OOC discussion and evaluation on the merits of each proposal. Nation concepts should go back to being proposals, rather than declarations, since RP is a cooperative game and we all have to play together. In my opinion, no special rules for any region are needed and a uniform approach is best.

 

[Thaumantica]

I’ve decided on my own, as I did in restarting the thread, to just let it all be seen again. I stopped what was an unsettled disagreement and probably did more damage then good by cutting it all off.

It’s difficult to figure out what is right to do in this situation but I don’t want everyone to be silenced at the end.

 

[Thaumantica]

As I suggested earlier, a process may aid in this event of a map request being challenged to pin down the problem:

Nation / Map Challenge: Ostrovakia's (Nation) request in Westernesse (Region or Continent)
Reason for Challenge: Ostrovakia is a slavic nation that does not make sense in Westernesse, which is comprised of First Nations and Colonial Nations.
Remedy / Alternative Placement: Ostrovakia is best suited for Gallo-Germania, but perhaps it should consider playing a nation of colonizers of Westernesse of a Slavic origin?

OR

Nation / Map Challenge: Ostrovakia (Nation) request in Gallo-Germania (Region or Continent)
Reason for Challenge: Ostrovakia's concept (link to pertinent thread) would upset the establish canon (history or precedent norms) of this region. Perhaps its population and military numbers immediately upset the balance of things for aforementioned reasons . . . As an outward aggressive monarchy it could have never survived as between Nation A. and B. The political or religious order is so inflammatory for this region that it is an issue that will only cause immediate conflict and drama.
Remedy / Alternative placement: Ostrovakia has correctly chosen this region for its culture/ethnos, but I would suggest the player reads prospective neighbor wiki's and concept threads (links). As a rabid monarchy I think it would have been undone already by Nation A or B, but perhaps if we set out an accord or agreement between one of the two it would make more sense why this territory exists as a buffer. I ask that the incoming player considers the religio-political statuses of its prospective neighbors in the way it develops this new nation.

As Coro writes his rules, I think he can incorporate what is a simple system: Identify the source, describe the issue, offer a resolution.

Although it may be too late for the issue of yesterday, I hope future rules and discourse will include a similar method.

 

[Khemia]

As I suggested earlier, a process may aid in this event of a map request being challenged to pin down the problem:

Nation / Map Challenge: Ostrovakia's (Nation) request in Westernesse (Region or Continent)
Reason for Challenge: Ostrovakia is a slavic nation that does not make sense in Westernesse, which is comprised of First Nations and Colonial Nations.
Remedy / Alternative Placement: Ostrovakia is best suited for Gallo-Germania, but perhaps it should consider playing a nation of colonizers of Westernesse of a Slavic origin?

OR

Nation / Map Challenge: Ostrovakia (Nation) request in Gallo-Germania (Region or Continent)
Reason for Challenge: Ostrovakia's concept (link to pertinent thread) would upset the establish canon (history or precedent norms) of this region. Perhaps its population and military numbers immediately upset the balance of things for aforementioned reasons . . . As an outward aggressive monarchy it could have never survived as between Nation A. and B. The political or religious order is so inflammatory for this region that it is an issue that will only cause immediate conflict and drama.
Remedy / Alternative placement: Ostrovakia has correctly chosen this region for its culture/ethnos, but I would suggest the player reads prospective neighbor wiki's and concept threads (links). As a rabid monarchy I think it would have been undone already by Nation A or B, but perhaps if we set out an accord or agreement between one of the two it would make more sense why this territory exists as a buffer. I ask that the incoming player considers the religio-political statuses of its prospective neighbors in the way it develops this new nation.

As Coro writes his rules, I think he can incorporate what is a simple system: Identify the source, describe the issue, offer a resolution.

Although it may be too late for the issue of yesterday, I hope future rules and discourse will include a similar method.

I like this, it could be applied across any region. Given the time between updates, and the tendency for requests made a week prior to update to not be added, it means there's usually ample time to file a complaint. I think Coro's new, lengthy application process complements it well, also.

 

[Kadikistani Union]

The community already gives newcomers friendly advice on where to settle depending on their ethnic and cultural intentions. That works completely fine everywhere except Touyou, so I don't see the value of making a laundry list of rules about it. I don't see the value of Demos being attacked in a more vicious way then he phrased his complaints himself. Comments on how he should go play videogames, comment on his English skills or mocking him will not bring about the 'clean slate' that Xen himself hoped to achieve.

The fact that he does complain here on the forum illustrates that unlike me he still believes that through fair discussion and reasoning he can get his point across. Indeed he has done this often, but it should be recognized as something positive as others like myself simply try to ignore it for as long as they can because in the end, discussion or not, leadership will do as they deem best. Maybe that's a rightful prerogative because one person pays the bill. As forum brass I would suggest having a thick enough skin to accept that privileges for some will always rub some of the other people the wrong way.

On the whole Touyou thing I would suggest either sinking everything that isn't Xen or giving it to one of his friends. That way we can end this and avoid future drama. We are all here to enjoy our hobby, so let's not stretch this out.

 

[Prydain]

This message is awaiting approval from the Ministry of Truth.

 

[Thaumantica]

The community already gives newcomers friendly advice on where to settle depending on their ethnic and cultural intentions. That works completely fine everywhere except Touyou, so I don't see the value of making a laundry list of rules about it.

Most of the time and ideally yes we do, but there have been exceptions outside of Touyou I can think of where new nations were blocked out without any guidance on how to amend.

The fact that he does complain here on the forum illustrates that unlike me he still believes that through fair discussion and reasoning he can get his point across.

Are there any other topics you’ve given up on? Most times my activity streaks haven’t happened during yours so I’m not sure what other things there may be.

 

[Prydain]

Really? might as well delete it not do a Goebbels on me.

 

[Thaumantica]

Just stop insulting people all of the time. You say rather nasty and personal things so often that they are taken seriously.

 

[Prydain]

So making fun of someone's English which is their second language, calling people childish etc is not personal attacks as long I smother it in waffle it be fine?

I guess I got make a wider point before Ministry of Truth edits this,

I might as well repeat what I said to Xen in private, being super up tight around rules in one region compared to everywhere else don't complain that you got no neighbors with you.

 

[Thaumantica]

The English stuff is a personal attack and was why I wanted to reboot the thread. What you wrote a few minutes ago, besides the bit about text RPG’s being a fossil (true), was full of the types of personal insults you’re constantly up to and many are tired of.

 

[Kadikistani Union]

Most of the time and ideally yes we do, but there have been exceptions outside of Touyou I can think of where new nations were blocked out without any guidance on how to amend.

I'm sure there are always exceptions.

Are there any other topics you’ve given up on? Most times my activity streaks haven’t happened during yours so I’m not sure what other things there may be.

Raising those would achieve the opposite of what I said I want, stretch this out. Don't think this is the ideal place for it even if I wanted to discuss these issues again. I posted because I felt Demos and Taley were treated unfairly and would preferably keep my posting in this thread to a minimum now that I have given my 2 cents above.

 

[Oneida]

I do not have a lot to add, but I do feel a need to touch on the personal attacks. It is very clear that some players have issues with other players despite how much we pretend there isn’t. Obviously, you all know my history and drama so I am not in anyway trying to take a holier-than-thou stance. However, it is very disheartening how quickly OOC threads as of late descend into personal attacks and its especially disheartening to see it from the moderator who is in charge of monitoring the bullying that contributed to the Great Drama of 2019.

There is, in no way, any constructive consequence of these attacks. It doesn’t do this forum any good to insult one another or offer a constructive critique with a backhanded comment. I know how quick I am to engage in that behavior, but I’ve made honest attempts to move passed it. We can all do our best to do the same. It does nothing but piss one another off.

In my ten years on the forum (woot) the Touyou Ban has always been a thing with various exceptions here and there and dramas to follow. This is no different to me. I have my personal feelings on the ban, but I understand its origins. If this is a course that Xen wants to go along, it will limit the ability of other players to engage and stifles their creativity on the rare occasions that players want to RP in Touyou. However, it preserves the continuity that Xen is seeking. It is sad to see Taley abandon his project, and I do not know how that conversation went.

I agree with the proposals that Saaya and Kyle have suggested in making the Touyou Ban universal. I think that while there are examples of where countries were shot down for xyz reason, there are plenty of examples where regions have adapted their history to allow someone’s project to move forward.

 

[Vrijpoort]

It would just be nice if someone would make it clear what parameters must be adhered to in order to begin a discussion with Xen on how one could RP in Toyou. So if Toyou will remain a very restricted place to RP, someone who still wants to RP there could at least know what sort of country they would have to RP, what sort of history and culture they would need to incorporate, in order to be even considered.

@Touzen I think there could be one or two neighbours who would be happy to work with you to make a country of theirs work in Toyou. Perhaps, as you may have mentioned recently, some have already approached you privately to discuss such a possibility. Great. If their proposal gets your approval and is to move forward, it would be nice for the rest of us to be able to read about it somewhere. If someone else in the future has an idea for RPing in Toyou and approaches you with the knowledge that they will have to adhere to certain history and rules, I hope they will be given the chance to embark on such a project.

Xen is very busy in RL, as many of us are, and I understand that he doesn't have the capacity to RP often. That's fine. I, for one, would love to be able to engage with Toyou in economic RP (for example) and that would have to be done with a different country, of which there are none. I think if the above can be accommodated for other players, there would still be a couple of people who are okay with the strict rules in Toyou and they would give it a shot.

I just think it is very unfortunate for well thought out ideas to be swatted down or forced into retreat before they have even been given a chance to get going.

As for people making nasty comments, about English language abilities or otherwise, that is just uncalled for as those of us who live and work in a second language know.

Anyway, this topic will likely hibernate for another 12-24 months before rebooting. Cheers!

 

[Jydsken-Østveg]

I’m sorry but the English language comments were deserved. Demos can’t have it both ways. He cannot bully people and the claim he doesn’t when it’s written right on the post how he did. He either doesn’t understand the finer points of English or he’s being an even bigger jerk. I’m calling a duck a duck. Jurzy perhaps did a better job by identifying them as backhanded comments and they are disguised as constructive critique.

Then there are little things such as his language where he is going to be an OOC bully with his language and then claim he isn’t, while meanwhile giving us the retort of “I’m sorry you feel that way.” He is consistently unsure of how different people come to the same conclusion that he’s being a bully... So he is going to called out for not understanding what he’s writing.

I don’t want to make fun of anybody’s language skills. Language is a fun and wonderful thing for everyone to explore and it’s great to watch everyone improve their English as the years go by. I know some people who entirely learned how to speak it via this forum... that’s truly amazing. I’m not making fun of his English. Don’t think of it as an insult or even a personal attack. This for all we know is actually the root of the problem. He doesn’t understand how he’s attacking people in his second language. I don’t know?

Maybe the rest of you cannot see it because you don’t know the buttons he pushes against certain other players. From the outside, maybe it looks like an innocent post from Demos. It’s not. It’s littered with very sharp attack notes that we’ve pointed out in the open. It’s also OOC fatigue. It is creating an atmosphere in which players are harassed, not only myself. Contrary to popular opinion, I am not a mod. I have no power on this forum. I purposefully neuter my opinions on how to carry out decisions on the map via a collaborative map team that approves what map to post. You’ll note I don’t post the map, just play a very large role in creating it. I don’t actually want any power on this forum. I just want to RP.

However, dirty laundry is out there to see for better or worse. I understand how that is frustrating for other players. I, like a few other players, have realized that the report button now works and perhaps I’ll just start using that as a means to address problems.

As for the actual topic at hand...
I’m listening and taking the constructive finer points and figuring out how to better this system. I do know that something will change based on feedback simply because the rulebook is seen as too verbose or micromanaged. That said, there does still need to be specifics to avoid arbitrary decisions made by a mapmaker and give players guidance on how to proceed. One of the base reasons for why this thread exists is because of the fact that players reached out to me because they didn’t understand what they needed to do to be able to apply for things and not be rejected. There were too many things not written down that left things unclear for them when it came to getting their applications approved.

Addressing finer points...
Several players don’t like that there are named rules. The reason they were used was not as a shaming tool, but instead as a basis for which an event or player was involved with something directly so that others can better understand why the rule exists. If they can see the Bourgogne Rule and that allows nations to stay on the map even after the creator abandons it... they can understand what event lead to that being an accepted means for keeping a nation on the map. It helps to create background knowledge without me having to write a paragraph to explain why this very specific rule exists and the spirit in which it should be implemented. I would expect these named rules would increase in volume as the rules that aren’t defined get identified or solved. If the forum doesn’t like that, I can remove them.

I find that there is a huge disconnect between players wanting gatekeeping and players that don’t want gatekeeping. That in my opinion is the ultimately disagreement in the Touyou Ban question. I don’t know how to solve that disconnect because anecdotally it seems split 50/50 and one of the major opinions on the issue is the owner of the site. Adding to the legitimacy of the Touyou Ban is that it has been in existence prior. Ultimately we need to decide how to manage gatekeeping. Whenever it is that I post amended rules/guidelines they will remove some of the more difficult to implement gatekeeping rules with the exception of the Touyou Ban and the Engellex Rule. They will remain until other solutions can be found.

 

[Pelasgia]

I’m sorry but the English language comments were deserved. Demos can’t have it both ways. He cannot bully people and the claim he doesn’t when it’s written right on the post how he did. He either doesn’t understand the finer points of English or he’s being an even bigger jerk. I’m calling a duck a duck. Jurzy perhaps did a better job by identifying them as backhanded comments and they are disguised as constructive critique.

I didn't even see your comments before they were deleted, so I cannot comment on them. If the point was that English is not my first language, that's a given; my first language is a Mediterranean language from a very different family within the Indo-European languages. In any case, I did not bully anyone, and trying to say otherwise is slanderous.

Then there are little things such as his language where he is going to be an OOC bully with his language and then claim he isn’t, while meanwhile giving us the retort of “I’m sorry you feel that way.” He is consistently unsure of how different people come to the same conclusion that he’s being a bully... So he is going to called out for not understanding what he’s writing.

Only two people, who've never particularly liked anything I've said.

Maybe the rest of you cannot see it because you don’t know the buttons he pushes against certain other players. From the outside, maybe it looks like an innocent post from Demos. It’s not. It’s littered with very sharp attack notes that we’ve pointed out in the open.

Or maybe they can't see it because it's not there. "How dare you" is not pointing out a "button", it's pointless indignation.

It’s also OOC fatigue. It is creating an atmosphere in which players are harassed, not only myself.

With all due respect, I believe if we're going to touch upon OOC fatigue, we should touch upon the reasons that made Taley, a long-time RPer with a promising concept in an otherwise inactive region, pack up and leave. OOC exists to serve RP, not the other way around; me, you and anyone else can like or dislike each other, but our main concern should be RP.

I, like a few other players, have realized that the report button now works and perhaps I’ll just start using that as a means to address problems.

A solution that cuts both ways.

In any case, I hoped this debacle was over, so let's finally let it rest.

As I've said before, we need to make regions open to new players. Older players come and go or move on with their lives, so NSE is like a nation with a 0 fertility rate; without newcomers, we're done. New players should generally be expected to fit into the culture and history of their region of choice, and should work with existing players in the region in an OOC thread before posting a concept, but established players should not be intransigent or completely closed off to new players. There's not much point to Pelasgia (to use a non-controversial example) absolutely excluding any Zionist nation next to it (I believe we had one 2 years ago) if it means northern Himyar is empty. Likewise, if someone were to stick a Pagan Gallic Confederacy (we also had one of those) next to Hierosolyma, I'd have some serious questions about history and ethnic clustering.